Originally Posted by stilton (Post 10535517)

Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10534275)

Southwest Airlines briefly operated the 727-200 during the 1970s. Were these crewed completely by the leasing airline (Braniff ?) or just piloted by SWA pilots converted from the 737 ? If the latter, who or what, occupied the FE station ? This situation seems familiar; I'm sure I've asked the question before.

In the UK, Britannia Airways perhaps faced a similar situation when they had the pair of 707s for a year or two. Third pilot or FE ?

Originally Posted by Wunwing (Post 10536850)

What was very clear from that brochure was that Ansett was sold the aircraft as a 3 man aircraft and that ORIGINALLY the aircraft was designed with a real panel installed. Ansett was possibly the 1st customer for the B767 which may explain why this was so?

Wunwing

Originally Posted by Spooky 2 (Post 10537313)

I'm pretty sure that SWA pilots trained as FE on these airplanes during that period.

Originally Posted by Mooncrest (Post 10537628)

Thankyou, Spooky.

Originally Posted by Spooky 2 (Post 10538476)

Don't take that to the bank as that's my recollection but it could be wrong.

The 767 FE panel was nothing more that sticking a few of the overhead switches and lights back on the "panel" tp appease the Annsett requirements, I recall seeing photos fo the hybrid FE station and the overhead panel on thses aircraft and I think it may have had the EICAS screen or a repeater back there as well?? Subsequent 767's through the most recent 767-300ERs still have the "panel" but minus any significant functioning switches other than a data loader and some switching/lights to verify a system is working and suspect that is designed per customer request.

Originally Posted by Wunwing (Post 10543661)

The Ansett B767 is an interesting story which I was purely an observer as our Association struggled. So after reading the various opinions on this I went to the history books, specifically the Purple Stripe produced by the AAFEA when they were winding up the Association .

According to that book, and as has been stated earlier, the B767 was originally produced in 3 versions including "hard wired three crew,new technology 2 crew and a 3 crew version that would allow conversion at a later date. It also says that the aircraft used for certification were 3 crew aircraft and the first 30 aircraft were built as 3 crew. All 30 were then converted to 2 crew but he Ansett aircraft were then converted to the 3 crew soft wiring to allow change at a later date.
Wunwing

Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 10544205)

I have to respectfully disagree with some of the details quoted - the number of 767s with the three crew configuration was much less - 7 or 8 - when it was decided to convert everything to two crew. The number one aircraft (VA001) flew and went through the initial flight test program and cert with the 3 crew configuration - all the rest were reconfigured to two crew before they flew. VA001 was eventually also converted to the two crew configuration. Boeing kept VA001 and it was used as a flying test bed for various other changes - including the initial PW4000 flight tests - before being leased to the USAF and converted to the "Airborne Optical Adjunct" or AOA. The AOA had a big hump on the top of the fuselage which contained a cryogenically cooled infrared red sensor intended to track inbound ballistic missiles as part of the "Star Wars" missile defense system.

Originally Posted by Wunwing (Post 10518787)

As a professional FE from 1971 to retirement,I worked L1049, B707 and B747 (all models to 300).
Prior to commencing my FE training on B707s, I was a licensed ground engineer on Boeing 707s.

In those days our patterns were up to 18 days away,often to places with no or very limited communications back to main base. I often was called on to make maintenance decisions or "guide" the local engineers to get the show on the road. Often there was a need to point the pilots in the right direction as far as in flight defects and suitable diversions to cover engineering problems. A lot of what we knew was never in writing and my company even ran informal monthly engineering meetings to discuss problems and examine what had happened over the last month. All was very definitely not for recording. And the system worked very well, only to come unstuck when pilot only B767 came into being.I have read all the US documents that lead to the demise of the PFEs in the US and the major flaw in them is that they purely look at what switches were operated by the FE. In my opinion the FE did far more than operate a panel

On one of my last B747 trips I advised a captain on an engineering problem that no one on the ground could give timely advice on. I was later told that acting on my advice saved $750,000 Australian due to the aircraft being very tightly scheduled for the next 2 days with no possible replacement aircraft and no suitable tooling for a repair being available on the station we were departing from.

Another advantage of a non pilot engineer was that we could to a degree give an opinion from a very different perspective. We had a different reporting/disciple structure which I think was mentioned by John Beatty in one of his early CRM texts. While on duty we worked for the captain but our long term discipline was via the Chief FE and that meant in an examination of events ,if we were 'right , there was someone backing us up which wasn't always for the case for pilots.

I find it interesting that in the current B737 Max situation ,that the Indonesian aircraft that subsequently crashed ,managed to survive the 1st day with the problem had a 3rd pilot in the cockpit. I had a stab runaway on a B707 very early in my career and picked it as the runaway started,just because I was sitting facing fwd at the time and saw it run well before the pilots saw it.

Overall in my opinion the US operators removed a huge amount of experience from the flight deck many years too soon. When I retired on the scrapping of a number of our B747s, our Deputy chief Pilot said that the FEs had on average made a major contribution to saving at least 3 hull losses/FE. I would agree with that but my score was about 5. In long haul at least I think that we well and truly earned our pay.
Wunwing

Originally Posted by bafanguy (Post 10534932)

The B727s were flown by SWA seniority list pilots; Braniff was an arch enemy. As for the FEs, I'm a bit less certain but think they were SWA mechanics who had the chance to fill that spot. Don't bet the grocery money on that part of the story but that's what I recall. I'm always prepared to stand corrected.

Originally Posted by bafanguy (Post 10619436)

Mooncrest,

Did a bit more research about SWA, their B727 days and the F/Es. When they got the first B727, they trained 5 F/Es who were in fact mechanics. As time went on and a few more airplanes were added, they hired pilot/F/Es.