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Quote:

Originally Posted by DANbudgieman (Post 10052353)

The ability to deliver theses weapons from a higher altitude in order to avoid the worst of the flak may also have been a consideration.

Tallboy and Grand Slam weren't delivered from high altitudes to avoid flack - they were deep penetration weapons which needed a high (supesonic) impact velocity to work as intended. The high altitude release was to ensure the velocity was achieved.

PDR

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For anyone seeking some a good readable book detailing the career of the Avro Lincoln may I recommend "Lincoln at War", by Mike Garbett and Brian Goulding. Published by Ian Allan 1979 and reprinted 1999. ISBN 0 7110 0847 7. 176 pages. Well illustrated with plenty of B&W photos of both British and Australian and a few of Argentinian and demobbed aircraft.
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if you happen to find a copy of the book see photo page 106 of Centaurus as a young man and page 107 same bloke doing a flapless in the Long Nose Lincoln Mk 31. Exits hurriedly stage left:E

The book is available on the river website. Just ordered.

The book arrived yesterday. One of the first things I found was a photo of the RAAF Lincolns doing their nationwide tour of Oz on their return from Malaya. I can remember them flying over the school near RAAF Pearce. I was an aviation nut even then. July '58. I was only eleven!

Aside of Chastise, I have never come across the front turret being manner by anyone other than the Bomb Aimer, it just wasn't practical.

On the subject of Lincolns, occasionally we had to do test flights on the Long Nose Lincoln Mk 31 which were based at Townsville in North Queensland, Australia.

Among other items, the test sheet required us to dive the aircraft to 313 knots IAS (if I recall correctly) with the purpose of checking the wing top surfaces for "oil canning." It was quite a task to get the Lincoln up to that speed since the usual cruise speed was about 160 knots IAS and much altitude was lost trying to reach 313 knots. While I can only guess what "oil canning" meant, I never knew its significance.

Although we had a few WW2 former Lancaster pilots among our crews (we are talking about 1951 to 1959 here when I flew the Lincoln) they did not know either.
Can any reader hazard a guess and explain why oil canning at any time, as well at high speed, was deemed undesirable? Maybe because it could lead to the metal surface of the wing peeling away?

Although this is from the construction industry, my knowledge of aviation, suggests this may give some insight into what they were looking for

https://www.stortz.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-oil-canning-in-sheet-metal/

'Oil Canning', I suspect, is another term for 'panting' the flexing and distortion of metal panels due to pressure changes. Experienced the effects in a Puma doing a test schedule at Boscombe with both cabin doors open at high - ish speed. The accompanying pressure fluctuations were VERY uncomfortable on the breathing process!
I appear to have written too short a comment - must be a first for everything - here's hoping this is now sufficient!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DANbudgieman (Post 10052353)

The forward turret was indeed rarely used, however removal of the forward (and mid upper) was primarily driven by weight considerations.

The main aim was to reduce airframe weight in order to allow the carriage of outsize weapons such as the 22,000lbs "Grand Slam."

These specialised weapons were expected to be delivered in daylight when flak was the primary threat. The ability to deliver theses weapons from a higher altitude in order to avoid the worst of the flak may also have been a consideration.

By the latter days of the war a strong escort force would be deployed in order to provide an effective screen against a much depleted Luftwaffe, hence the turrets were largely superfluous.

You forget that Bomber Command still operated by night until near the end of the war and suffered worse percentage losses at night than by day. Whilst the Luftwaffe at night was deprived of many of it's advantages, early warning for one, it still posed a threat. The turrets were largely superfluous anyway throughout the war, but the main reason they were not removed ( unless done so for the dropping of certain weapons) was morale. The dropping of Grand Slams in particular was done way below the operating height of a normal Lancaster ( and below the height calculated by Wallis for maximum effect).They just couldn't get to height with the weight carried, removing the turrets were a weight saving measure but they were still very vulnerable to flak, as they operated well within the 88s range. Only Mosquitoes could outfly the 88s.

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Although this is from the construction industry, my knowledge of aviation, suggests this may give some insight into what they were looking for

Thanks for the info WB627.
Cent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornish Jack (Post 10627841)

If you ever get the chance, have a look at the rear end of some of the Dominies which used to trundle around at low level. Your suspicions will be confirmed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10629623)

If you ever get the chance, have a look at the rear end of some of the Dominies which used to trundle around at low level. Your suspicions will be confirmed.

Or the right side of a Sea King tail (or a S61)
It was said that if you sat in the mid aft seat you could see the interior panels twist.

Slightly OT, but I'm old enough to remember when a standard apprentice exercise was to make an old-fashioned thumb press oil can. I think I still have mine somewhere ...

After that, my only other experience of oil-canning was when I started to fly on Shorts 330s. :O

SLB - No experience of the 61, but several Seaking trial flights (with just one door open) didn't have the Puma 'panting' effect. More problematic with the Puma was the effect on breathing - the pressure waves made chest and diaphragm control quite difficult!

I thought the point of Air Gunners, at least in practice (as opposed to theory) was not just using the guns but also - perhaps mostly - to look out for friendly aircraft (collisions), their bombs, and of course enemy aircraft, as well as providing observations to help the navigator.