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Croydon Airport - Junkers 52 1946
I am seeking confirmation that JU52's were definitely operating out of Croydon Airport in 1946 via BEA with Railway Air Services under regs.G AHOF and G- AHOC as both issues are absolutely denied by a certain pedantic poster. I realise that some JU's may have been revamped and renamed Jupiters or whatever. I should mention that this particular adversary requires that the 'exact' reference must be applied when discussing what many of us refer to as for instance, a Dakota with its specific reference number or name clearly shown such as C47- DC3 - Sky Train - Gooney Bird - Pionair etc. (Yes I am aware there are certain tech differences). Any info appreciated.
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"War Prizes", Phil Butler, Midlands Counties, ISBN 0 904597 86 5.
Page 114 shows photograph of ex.JU 52/3m g8e as the first of the "Jupiter" class at Croydon Airport in BEAC colours as G-AHOC at the inauguration of the London-Liverpool-Belfast service on the 18th November 1946. Kieron. |
I certainly recall seeing Ju. 52 G-AHOG at Croydon in around 1946 and that was with BEA, if that's any help.
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When he discussed the types of aircraft to be used, the Parliamentary Secretary agreed that we were suffering now, and should suffer for some years to come, from the inevitable neglect of civil aviation during the war. The war time concentration on combat aircraft meant now that there would have to be three stages in the production of civil aircraft. In the first, we should have to rely on the conversion of bombers; in the second, we should be using civil developments of types originally used as military aircraft; but, in the third stage, there would be a complete breakaway from previous designs, and aircraft specifically designed from the outset for civil use would come into operation. These three stages, and the numbers of aircraft to be used—so far as they were disclosed—are shown in another accompanying table, but it must be appreciated that the "stages " overlap. Mr. Thomas made the astonishing announcement that Ju 52s would be used on internal routes until suitable British machines were available. In November 1946, BEA's first service to Northern Ireland departed Croydon for Belfast (Sydenham) via Liverpool, using an ex-Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 52/3m operated by independent airline Railway Air Services on the fledgling corporation's behalf. The following month, BEA's Belfast operations transferred to Nutts Corner while Dakotas replaced the "Jupiter" class Ju 52s from 1947. BEA's early "Jupiter" class bare metal finish livery at Manchester Ringway on 25 September 1947 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...7_edited-2.jpg All the Ju 52's operated in Britain. Dates of registration to relevant operator, final date is registration cancellation. G-AHBP Railway Air Services 20-8-46 BEA 1-2-47 2-2-48 G-AHOC Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 1-10-46 2-2-48 G-AHOD Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 19-10-46 2-2-48 G-AHOE Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 14-11-46 2-2-48 G-AHOF Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 26-11-46 2-2-48 G-AHOG Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 22-10-46 2-2-48 G-AHOH Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 12-3-47 2-2-48 G-AHOI Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 28-1-47 2-2-48 G-AHOJ Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 1-3-47 2-2-48 G-AHOK Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 9-1-47 27-1-47 (destroyed) G-AHOL Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 21-12-46 2-2-48 |
Thanks everyone for your most helpful replies info and photos. I was a Junior with KLM at Croydon Airport in 46 and would wander around what I feel certain were JU52s in various airline livery but as they may have been revamped and renamed as Toucans CASA Jupiters etc I need to be prepared to have solid info available to answer a most pedantic adversary and I am grateful you have all replied with the info that should settle the score.
One more request. This same person also states categorically that NO DC3 AIRCRAFT OPERATED IN OR OUT OF CROYDON AFTER 1939 . Bearing in mind the many variants or names to muddy the water including C47 - Dakota - Travelair - Skytrain etc - what I need is info clearly designating that DC3's were operating at Croydon after 1939 and through the Post War years. |
Thanks Tagron - The problem being that although there are many reports on DC3 movements in and out of Croydon in the years quoted his argument seems to be that they are ALL WRONG ! He insists they were not DC3's but would have been C47's and other variants of the C47. I don't know if its possible to define a TRUE DC3 but if anyone can confirm with some details or link an 'original' DC3 at Croydon any year from 1940 to its closure date then that's what I am now seeking. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by pasir
(Post 9881154)
Thanks Tagron - The problem being that although there are many reports on DC3 movements in and out of Croydon in the years quoted his argument seems to be that they are ALL WRONG ! He insists they were not DC3's but would have been C47's and other variants of the C47. I don't know if its possible to define a TRUE DC3
It's perfectly possible that all those movements were former military C-47s. For example you will see plenty of references to BEA "DC-3"s, but their Pionair and Leopard fleet were in fact civilianised C-47s. It's worth bearing in mind that there have only ever been 20 or so DC-3s on the UK register, but nearly 300 C-47s. |
Yes -I may be asking for the impossible, taking into account that even official and air line company reports over that period often refer to the a/c as DC3's which cannot be relied upon due to their true definition in many instances where they are shown as DC3's could have been of C47/Skytrain or one of the other designations allotted to this type of aircraft.
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The UK register has the following variants.
16 X DC-3 297 X C-47 3 X C-53 2 X R4D BEA never owned a DC-3, and BOAC only had two, AGBD and AGEN. |
Thanks - Several European airlines operated services at Croydon post 1945 KLM alone had up to 8 DC3's (or were they/C47's ?) daily. What is being alleged is that there were NEVER ANY DC3's at Croydon after 1939. The inference being that they were either C47's or one of the other DC3 style variants, He is stating to the effect that any refs of DC3's at Croydon post war are wrong and they are in fact C47s or other variants. Is he right ?
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I think Swissair still operated their original DC-3s as well as C-47s post-war, would have thought they'd have flown into Croydon.
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
(Post 9881742)
I think Swissair still operated their original DC-3s as well as C-47s post-war, would have thought they'd have flown into Croydon.
DOUGLAS DC-3-216, HB-IRA / 1945, SWISSAIR (SR / SWR) This picture is © R.A.Scholefield Collection and may not be used or published without permission. CONTACT R.A.SCHOLEFIELD COLLECTION Registration: HB-IRA Construction Number: 1945 Model Douglas DC-3-216 Operator: Swissair (SR / SWR) Airport: Croydon (EGCR), UK - England Photographer: R.A.Scholefield Collection Date Taken: 1938 Views: 366 Assembled by Fokker and delivered to Swissair 10.06.37. Has titles under the cabin windows. Sold to Ozark in 05.55. |
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 9881698)
The UK register has the following variants.
16 X DC-3 I suspect you haven't accounted for the 5 that are still current on the register. |
They may be registered as DC-3s but weren't they built as C-47s?
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
(Post 9881825)
They may be registered as DC-3s but weren't they built as C-47s?
The ones registered as "DC-3C-R-1830-90C" are a bit of a giveway (R-1830 is the military designation of the Twin Wasp) and were formerly C-47Bs. In addition there were two former C-47As, designated "DC-3C-S1C3G". The other 10 were built as DC-3s/DC-3As. |
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 9881873)
About half of them were (so are still technically C-47s).
The ones registered as "DC-3C-R-1830-90C" are a bit of a giveway (R-1830 is the military designation of the Twin Wasp) and were formerly C-47Bs. In addition there were two former C-47As, designated "DC-3C-S1C3G". The other 10 were built as DC-3s/DC-3As. So to conclude - Those aircraft depicted or shown as being DC3's seen or photographed at Croydon post war would almost certainly have been not DC3's but a C47 or variant or anything other than an original DC3. |
The only true DC3s were those built pre-war.
The likely candidates are, as described above, the Swissair ones, which carried on throughout and actually well into the 1950s, and the KLM fleet. Most of the latter was lost in various ways in WW2 but a couple which had been in the UK survived to be handed back to KLM afterwards. The real issue is whether they actually came to Croydon once civil flying restarted in 1946, when European operations restarted they were generally at Northolt, and long distance ones the first Heathrow users. They may of course have come on government service, which actually accounted for muchmediate post-war flying. |
Yes - Swissair seems more likely to qualify. The irony is that as a lad I was with KLM at Croydon airport who only operated, with few exceptions, what we all assumed were DC3's, where I spent many hours typing out KLM passenger sheets, loading sheets and export docs all showing a DC3 reference.
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Dave, your correct, I missed including those current.
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Originally Posted by pasir
(Post 9881935)
>>>
So to conclude - Those aircraft depicted or shown as being DC3's seen or photographed at Croydon post war would almost certainly have been not DC3's but a C47 or variant or anything other than an original DC3. Thanks David (sometime SLF in one or the other) |
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