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-   -   if you like the 747 ... (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/574108-if-you-like-747-a.html)

Good Business Sense 6th Feb 2016 09:13

Dear ExSp33db1rd - you've brought back some great memories ..... things I had completely forgotten about yet so wonderful to remember !!

..... pushing forward in the flare ....... many of the guys just wouldn't believe it worked

..... just realised, "I never dropped a mask" either ..... what a great claim to fame :D:D:O:O and what a good name for a book !

Best moment on 747 - my Mum and Dad were travelling home after visiting us and through sheer coincidence I was doing that flight .... got them into the cockpit for a night landing and through sheer luck I got one of those landings where the speed brake lever slides back and there's no feeling of touchdown ..... as Mum and Dad went through customs they heard a group from the flight talking about the best landing they had ever had ..... Mum and Dad were the proudest parents in the world and never forgot the moment !!

Aye them were days !!

ExSp33db1rd 7th Feb 2016 02:57


................ heard a group from the flight talking about the best landing they had ever had..............
Pre 747, i.e. 707 days .... landing in Manilla one night ( having diverted from Hong Kong ) the Captains window fogged up on descent and hadn't cleared by the time we were about to start the approach. He said he had only recently been promoted and wasn't yet allowed to give landings to the co-pilot, so he would have to change seats with me and land from the right hand side.

I refused on the grounds that whereas he might still be 'legal' flying from the right hand seat. I certainly had no clearance or experience in the left hand seat, and so that might be "illegal", no problem, I was well qualified with recent landing practice, so just let me do the landing.

He refused, and with a bit of help continued to manually ( no autoland facility available then ) land with a partially obscured windscreen, but made rather a heavy landing.

Walking through Customs we heard two passengers say - deliberately in our presence - that was the worst landing they had experienced in a 707, but then the co-pilot had probably done it !

4Greens 7th Feb 2016 08:52

The early Pratts we had were fitted with water injection which we needed for long haul out of hot and high airports. Could be quite exciting even when working ok.

Old Fella 7th Feb 2016 09:28

B747 v A380
 
Read some of the comments after watching the initial video. Claims by some that the A380 is so superior to the B747. Apparently not too many airlines think so. Orders for the A380 for 2014 were 15 aircraft and for 2015 down to 2. In 9 years since the first revenue flight only 179 have been delivered. As of December 2015 1520 B747's have been delivered. I don't think the A380 will ever get anywhere near the numbers or years in production the B747 has achieved.

DaveReidUK 7th Feb 2016 09:34


Originally Posted by Old Fella (Post 9262094)
I don't think the A380 will ever get anywhere near the numbers or years in production the B747 has achieved.

Nobody, not even Airbus, ever believed that it would. The airline industry has moved on since the 1960s.

B744IRE 7th Feb 2016 10:11

74HEAVEN
 
1969 B747 first flight, Man walked on the Moon, Concorde first flight in UK...and I completed my Flying Scholarship to PPL...fast forward to 2016 and retirement :uhoh:

When I converted from the DC8 to the B707 it was like going from a Bentley to a Ford. When I converted from the B707 to the B747 in 1983 it was like going from a Ford to a Rolls Royce (with 4 RB211s).

Since then I have flown the B747-100, 200, 300, 400, SP & Freighter with RR, P & W and GE...the ultimate is the 400 with GEs.

21,000 hours total plus 4,000 in simulators with 15,500 on 747s, 11,000 on the 400 and in all that time I have shut down 1 P & W due low oil and had one hydraulic system failure after which the gear came down good as gold.

Typically 20 minutes to 35,000 even when using reduced climb power then cruise at M.86...smile every time I go to work :ok:

stilton 7th Feb 2016 10:12

So Airbus deliberately spent billions of dollars to produce an aircraft they knew would only sell a few but they planned on this ?


Kind of a ridiculous assertion, it has been a technical success but a massive commercial failure. That does not come close to the 747 which was technically brilliant, especially considering its vintage and enormously profitable.

Chox Off 7th Feb 2016 11:19

Wonderful thread. Just very proud to have had the honour to have worked with 747s. A thing of beauty and quiet strength.Thank you Boeing!

Arfur Dent 7th Feb 2016 11:42

Another subject that we haven't touched on is the attitude of the passengers to the 747. Although not as 'smooth' as the A380 (everyone seems to remark about how 'smoooooth' it is!) the 747 was/is very popular with frequent flyers. It is faster than the Airbus and much better in turbulence than the 777. It has more premium seats than the triple and seems to give the passengers more confidence because it has 4 engines.
Seems to me that had the plummeting oil prices happened a bit sooner, airlines (i.e. accountants) could have continued to operate some ULR flights with the 744 and, who knows, some more 744-8is would have been sold.

One thing I do remember. After 4 years flying the 737, I went to Cathay Pacific Airways and eventually got to the Base Training (circuits and bumps in Guangzhou) phase and was absolutely staggered to discover that this enormous aircraft handled pretty much the same as its much smaller brother. Quite an amazing feat of flight control wizardry that seems impossible when you compare their sizes. The 747 was actually easier to fly because, due to its' weight and inertia , it took a lot to deflect it away from whence it was going. Mind you, you had to get that bit right too!
Anyway, what a lovely, positive, "feel good" thread about a legendary aircraft. Keep 'em coming!!:ok:

CONSO 7th Feb 2016 13:53

Faster
 

It is faster than the Airbus
One of the reasons it is a bit faster goes back to the 1950's and the advent of supersonic flight in the military and as I recall a guy named R Whitcomb. Called the area rule- which in the 747 was a result of the upper deck ' bulge"

When Convair developed what become the f-102 delta wing fighter, the first version could barely go supersonic. Thru wind tunnel analysis and an aha moment, what was ' discovered" was that you needed a smooth transition in the frontal area for supersonic flight with reasonable power. When they changed the body with what was called the ' coke bottle " effect, the F-102 became a supersonic plane.

Picture the airplane from the front- take slices every few inches like cutting a loaf of bread while facing the rectangular end. Compute the resultant area or each slice. as you get to the wing(s) the area normally would increase in a ' jump " when plotted for each slice. By extending the upper deck and appropriate fairing, the area transition is relatively smooth. . While in the case of the 747 it did not go supersonic- as it approached that speed, the reduction in drag became worthwhile.

A more comprehensive explanation can be found by easy searches of course- and I suspect that many already knew of this effect. But IMO it is just one of the subtle things that made the 747 unique for its time. :ok:

barit1 7th Feb 2016 14:04

Most interesting, Arfur Dent.

Late 70s, Wardair (Canada) was upgrading from 727 to widebodies. They first bought two secondhand 741s, later two new 742s plus two DC-10-30s. Pilots transitioning to the jumbo commented on the similar feel of the Boeing types and ease of transition. Those going from 727s to the Long Beach widebody had a longer and perhaps more difficult period getting used to approach/landing dynamics.

Uncle Fred 7th Feb 2016 16:27

Arfur Dent said:

and much better in turbulence than the 777.
I would agree. I am flying the 777 now and I would say the -400 did give a better ride through turbulence. I always wondered if that was due to perhaps just a bit higher wing loading on the 777--although that might not be it at all.

Either way, just a comfortable ride most all of the time.

Fliegenmong 8th Feb 2016 07:37

Never actually 'flew' it regrettably...but first ever experience with a 74 was on a 'SP'...there followed several trips on the 200, the QF 'Combis', 300s and the 400...

Best experiences? Without a doubt Jump seat into Kai Tak, on several occasions....a near empty SP flight....There were more crew than pax.....that was memorable...Upper deck business class always felt 'special' ....smoking in CX business class, upper deck (Goes back a bit eh?)....

Nialler 8th Feb 2016 08:46

I remember the day that Aer Lingus took delivery of its first 747.

It was practically a public holiday.

Nialler 8th Feb 2016 08:49

Smoking in flight?

Those were the days.

In the pre-flight announcements the cabin crew would express gratitude in advance to the passengers for not smoking pipes or cigars.

glad rag 8th Feb 2016 10:03


Originally Posted by Old Fella (Post 9262094)
Read some of the comments after watching the initial video. Claims by some that the A380 is so superior to the B747. Apparently not too many airlines think so. Orders for the A380 for 2014 were 15 aircraft and for 2015 down to 2. In 9 years since the first revenue flight only 179 have been delivered. As of December 2015 1520 B747's have been delivered. I don't think the A380 will ever get anywhere near the numbers or years in production the B747 has achieved.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-titan-199071/

Have a read you might learn something...

Landroger 8th Feb 2016 13:14

747 Non Stop London - Sydney
 
I found this on this forum some years ago and liked it so much, I kept it on my confuser to read from time to time, when I needed some good news. I'm afraid I cannot remember the original poster, but the original author was a Captain Massey-Greene of, presumably, QANTAS. It speaks volumes for Capt. M-G, QF and, of course, the 747-400.


...The idea for our long range flight came originally from a suggestion that we should fly a 747SP non-stop from London to Perth. The SP was, until development of the 747-400, the longest-range commercial aircraft in the world. The SP has been used for some years by QANTAS on non-stop Pacific routes from the east coast of Australia to the west coast of the USA.

The 747SP held then the current non-stop distance record for a commercial aircraft. This flight by a Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7F powered SP flew a great circle distance of 8, 872nm in 17hrs, 22min with the assistance of a 36kt tail wind. Increased takeoff gross weight and the use of a 2000 USG pillow fuel tank in the cargo hold were required to achieve the flight.

The 747SP was developed in ‘76 to satisfy long, thin route requirements. It was a derivative of the basic 747 with a shorter fuselage and aerodynamic improvements in the wing/body fairing and engine strut area.

The 747-400 was a new aircraft incorporating some more aerodynamic improvements such as wing tip extensions and winglets, an improved wing/body strake fairing (derived from the SP) and a re-rigged elevator. With 3000USG of fuel in the horizontal stab, and engine improvements to the RR RB211-524G engines more than offset the larger size and extra weight. This resulted in the -400 having 14% more range capability than the SP. Of this 14%, approximately 4.5% came from the aerodynamic improvements and the rest from the improved engines.

The London to Perth non-stop did not happen.

During the early planning of the 747-400 introductions, it was suggested that we should fly this aircraft from London to Sydney non-stop to promote the image of QANTAS as a pioneering long haul carrier.

Initially the idea was regarded as crazy, for the aircraft did not have enough range. The nominal range of the -400 is 7900nm and the proposal to fly it 9700nm non-stop. Surely someone was dyslexic!

Well, not really, that 7900nm was for an aircraft with a nominal full volumetric load. What was the aircraft capable of if it was flown empty? Just over 9000nm.

Was it really possible to fly London the Sydney non-stop? QANTAS traditional flag route had always been the Kangaroo route and what a coup if we could be the first to fly it non-stop.

Not only non-stop, but almost halfway around the world and between two of the most distant city pairs on the globe.

The idea gathered momentum and, as the project pilot for the aircraft, I was charged with making it happen. The non-stop part of the project was continued now in great secrecy and on a strictly need to know basis.
As with any project of this kind there will always be those who will tell you it cannot be done. I then had to adopt the approach of "Don’t tell me it cant be done, tell me what we need to do."

Gradually over a period of months, we got closer and closer to this all starting to make sense. The parameters for the flight were set. It would be extremely desirable to carry some passengers (about 20), the aircraft should not be stripped, and the operational rules should not be grossly different from the norm. Impossible! "Don’t strip the aircraft, add weight of passengers, that all costs fuel" said the doubters.

Boeing (only 3 people in Boeing knew of the attempt at this stage) produced some figures and charts that said it was theoretically possible, but only under ideal conditions. The aircraft would need to be perfect and we needed a good set of engines and the winds had to be favourable.

The build of the aircraft was controllable and we could talk to RR about the engines, but the winds...?

A study began of what winds we could expect at what periods of the year. Originally the first aircraft was due do be delivered in April 1989 and that was statistically one of the better times of the year for an attempt.

RR were approached at a high level to talk about the need for a particularly good set of engines. They agreed to do whatever was possible. A route study was done to plan the shortest possible ground miles for the flight. Numerous alternatives were also planned to allow for the best tracking on the day to take advantage of whatever winds would be blowing. Boeing’s original study had been done using Great Circle distances between major city pairs along the route.

This had produced a total distance of 9505nm. We did not believe that we could obtain over flight clearances for GC tracking in today’s busy skies. Utilising established airways our shortest route was 9624nm. Yet another 120nm to squeeze out of the aircraft.

Then the aircraft delivery was delayed. The further the delay, the worse the winds were likely to be. An August delivery was statistically the worst time of the year for winds.

How could we squeeze some more range out of the aircraft? We would reduce the bleed air demand from the engines for air-conditioning by operating the aircraft utilising only one of the three units. Air quality in the cabin was not a consideration with a maximum of 30 people planned to be on board. Using a single air-conditioning pack could theoretically gain us about 0.5% in range. But would the pressurisation hold at our maximum planned altitude of 45000ft with such a low inflow? We would not know until we flew the aircraft.

We could use the fuel in the horizontal stabilizer tank to our advantage by not using it until we absolutely had to. We would run the trim in flight down to its maximum aft centre of gravity permissible. This would keep the aircraft in its most efficient trim condition and use less fuel, gaining another theoretical 0.4% in range until the tank was empty.

The weight of the aircraft had to be pared to an absolute minimum within the bounds that had been established. The galley equipment would have to be kept to essentials only. No silver service for our VIP passengers on this flight! Water tank quantity should be the minimum required for the few on board. All non-essential equipment and the normal delivery flight stores would have to be transported to Sydney some other way - not on board as was our usual practice. Weight came down and the range edged up. Still, not enough.

Fuel for the flight became the critical factor. Fuel weight is limited by tank volume, but if we could somehow make the fuel more dense then we could carry more weight of fuel and it is mass flow that affects the engines. We investigated the possibility of chilling fuel, as this would increase the density slightly. But how to chill 60000 USG and would the effect of cooling be enough? Where could we get some dense fuel? So the search began. Someone suggested we use JP10, an incredibly dense synthetic fuel used by military for some missile applications. That was no good, Boeing advised, the wing structure is not designed to carry that kind of weight and besides, the winglets of this aircraft are not fitted with outrigger wheels. The search went on.

A slight increase in fuel quantity could be achieved by overfilling the fuel tanks. Normally the fuel tanks are never quite filled, to leave some airspace for expansion and prevent fuel spillage if it warmed after fuelling. By overriding the volumetric ****-off of the fuelling system, we could overfill the tanks by about 500 USG. We knew at least one airline used this procedure on a regular basis, provided fuelling was completed just prior to departure.

We kept paring weight out of the aircraft. All normal galley equipment not required on the flight would be shipped to Sydney via Los Angeles. Safety equipment, except the amount required for the actual passengers on board would also be shipped. The same would apply to any cargo restraint equipment. The holds would be empty. The operating weight of the aircraft came down and the range capability edged up.

We started to run actual plans through our flight-planning computer. We were tantalizingly close. The fuel for the flight was critical. The search went on...

Approaches were made, quietly, to various oil companies in Europe to see if they could produce the fuel we needed. One after another they said no. Even if they had the feed stock they would need to crack such an exotic brew, thus the 60000 USG we wanted was either too small or too large an order and the price would be horrendous.

The fuel was all we needed now to make this flight theoretically possible, but time was running out. The aircraft delivery date had now been fixed for the 9th of August. We would soon have to announce our intention and to seek the cooperation of ATC over Europe to expedite the flight and ensure we would be able to get our required route and altitude. Lower than normal altitudes would cause excessive fuel consumption and that could terminate out attempt in the very early stages of the flight. The achieved altitudes in the first two or three hours of the flight would be critical.

Because the flight was a one off, we also had to obtain over flight clearances from all the countries over which we would fly, and that can take around 30 days. We needed that fuel. ***** *******, our fuel director, felt his telephone bill would keep OTC going for many years.

Behind all this was some doubt about how the aircraft would actually perform. We would not know until we flew it across to London and actually measured its performance. One percent in fuel mileage could make the difference, and that kind of variation from aircraft to aircraft was not unusual.

Finally Shell said they could make the fuel. At last! We could now announce the flight and start real preparations. Shell then said they would move to make the fuel in West Germany because that was where the feedstock was. How would we transport the fuel to London? Tankers we said. Not that easy they said; we don’t have them to spare. Another hurdle. Then we found some tankers, not the usual behemoths, small ones, but tankers nonetheless. Nine would be required.

By this stage I was in Seattle preparing for the aircraft acceptance and delivery. Weekly conference calls and other ad hoc calls were keeping the telephone lines warm, smoothing out the final details.

The pieces were starting to fall into place. An enormous effort by what was now a fairly large team of people, all experts in their own speciality. But how would the aircraft perform? The last unknown. Were our calculations correct? We would not know for sure until we flew the aircraft to London from Seattle. That would be the final test.

The aircraft delivery was going to be delayed about a week because of some late part supplies to Boeing. Reorganise the schedule, use up the pads I had built in and reschedule the departure date from London a couple of days back. Could we achieve the necessary crew training in one day instead of three? Yes, it could all be done and the over flight clearances were still valid. We could still achieve a weekday departure from London (necessary because of congestion over Europe during weekends caused by the incredible number of charter flights taking tourists to and from holiday resorts in the height of summer) and a weekday arrival into Sydney.

Shell announced another small hitch with that all essential fuel. It had been prepared in two batches and they would not mix. Solution; put it all in a rail tanker and shunt it up and down a sliding to shake it up. A gigantic cocktail shaker! It worked. The resultant fuel was analyzed and their final masterstroke - this special brew not only complied with the civil Jet A1 specification, but it also had some very special characteristics. It was as dense as that specification allowed and it had an extraordinary freeze point. I told shell it had to have a freeze point of at least -50*c to stop the fuel freezing in the tanks during a very long flight at the expected cold temperatures. Shell said they had tested it to -70*c and would that do, or did I want them to test it further. Since the coldest OAT that I had ever seen was -69*c and the fuel should not get much colder than -40*c, I said that -70*c was probably about enough. They shipped the fuel to London.

Delivery of the aircraft came and went with a few hitches, but nothing serious. We completed our training and set off to London with one of the most experienced and high-level crews that QANTAS had ever assembled. With me now for the flight to London and for the non-stop were: -
Ray Heiniger - then - Flight Operations Training Director
Rob Greenop - then - Flight Standards and Safety Director
George Lindeman - then - Manager Flight Simulators

We also had Captain Chet Chester from Boeing as an additional pilot for the long flight. Also on board were Jim Clarke, Manager Performance Engineering and a performance engineer from Boeing and one from RR.

The aircraft performed flawlessly during that flight. Once the performance engineers had processed their observations through a laptop computer in London, they announced that it was that critical one percent better than we had expected. The London to Sydney non-stop was now GO!

On the strength of the positive news about the performance, I agreed to allow one more passenger on the flight. The total on board would now be 23, comprising 5 pilots, 2 cabin crew and 16 passengers. I was to wonder about adding that extra passenger about half way thought he flight.

On the day of the flight the wind forecast was the worst that we had seen for some weeks, the overall component was only +14kts and we had been seeing upwards of +20. However, the forecast for Sydney was good and we still had adequate reserves of fuel.

The fuelling, which had been substantially carried out the day before, was completed. Each tank was filled until it overflowed out the wing tip vents with a fire truck standing by to wash away any spilt fuel.

My feeling of relief was considerable when the first engine started normally. Although there was no reason to doubt that they would start, this was the first time this fuel had been used.

The co-operation we received from ATC and the authorities generally was absolutely superb. It all started with our departure from London when ATC allowed us to be towed out to the runway which saved us about 1/2 tonne of fuel. They also made our slot for departure on the arrival runway so our departure would not be delayed. We received all the route and altitude clearances that were needed even across the incredibly busy skies of central Europe. ATC in all countries displayed interest in our flight, wished us well, with a couple passing official greetings from their government.

All went totally according to Hoyle, until we passed over Muscat. About then we climbed to 37000 ft and the winds, already forecast to be headwinds proved to be much stronger than we had expected. Which just goes to prove that weather forecasting is not yet an exact science. These adverse winds persisted for about 3 hours until we passed Colombo. During this time we could do nothing, but watch as our fuel reserve started to diminish.

Then, over the Cocus Island and now at 41000 ft, we were passed a revised forecast for Sydney. It was not the sort of news I wanted to hear at that stage of the flight with our already reduced fuel reserve. The forecast was for INTER TS about the time of our arrival. That meant that we had to have an additional thirty minutes of reserve fuel above our minimum reserve of 30 min. Simply, at that stage, we did not have even 30 minutes of reserve fuel let alone 60.

Fortunately, the winds had already swung around to the tail and started to become stronger than forecast. We began to make up lost time and our fuel situation started to improve.

We flew on knowing that the weather in Adelaide and Melbourne was good in case the weather in Sydney turned really foul, but it would be a real disappointment not to make our objective. To say nothing of the fact that I had been told not to expect to fly home on the aircraft if we did divert. Our director of Flight Operations had made it known that he considered a bus much more appropriate form of transport if we did not make Sydney.

Overhead Adelaide and now flying at 45,000 ft (or nearly 14km high) the winds continued to be more favourable than forecast and we received a revised forecast for Sydney which changed the TS to heavy showers. The import of this was that we no longer needed that extra 30 min of reserve fuel. Sydney was now assured!

I was to discover later, that some negotiation had been going on between our Director of Flight Operations and the weather forecasters to see if they would consider removing the mention of TS from that earlier forecast. They agreed to do this and at about the time this conversation was finishing there was an enormous thunderclap at Mascot. This was heard over the phone by the weather man who exclaimed "What the **** was that?" Legend has it that the response was something to the effect that no one at Mascot heard anything and the weatherman must be hearing things.

The rest is history, except to say that our welcome in Sydney exceeded anything I had expected. To see so many people waiting for us as we turned the corner around the hangar onto the QANTAS maintenance area was a very humbling experience.

We arrived in Sydney with 5.6 tonnes (or just over 45 min) of fuel remaining, of the 183.5 tonnes we had on board out of London.

20 hrs 9 min and 5 sec after liftoff at London and almost half a world away, we achieved that which we set out to achieve many months before. Two world records and two Australian records were set in the process. It was an enormous sense of achievement for me and for the whole team who worked on this project....
Nice, innit? :ok:

Landroger

DaveReidUK 8th Feb 2016 16:42

Fascinating account.

I'd love to know how much difference there was between "a particularly good set of engines" and the bog-standard shipsets that Rolls were supplying for production aircraft.

barit1 8th Feb 2016 19:01

These are potential beneficial goodies:

Custom fits & clearances

Special break-in run

Special ops instructions, avoiding rapid thrust changes

Tighter instrumentation calibration

:8

The Range 8th Feb 2016 19:19

Good posts, guys. Enjoying it.


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