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-   -   BOAC B707 ops in the 1960s (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/551133-boac-b707-ops-1960s.html)

WHBM 15th Jan 2015 08:40

Despite all of this a onetime-BOAC 707 was lost in the Airtours 707 training accident at Prestwick under exactly the envisaged circumstances as late as 1977. Post 134 above refers.

megan 15th Jan 2015 18:59


It had nothing to do with the British ARB
It had everything to do with the ARB, in particular their chief test pilot D. P. Davies. To put that myth to bed, "Flight" 25/12/59

Some time ago it became clear that the A.R.B. was not prepared to give approval to the Boeing 707 for B.O.A.C. purely on the basis of compliance with American performance requirements. The history of this situation is a long one, and it is closely bound up with the gradual reconciliation of British and American performance requirements. Although these are now similar they are not identical, so it does not follow that because the aero-dynamically similar Boeing -320 has been certificated to S.R.422B requirements that these can automatically be accepted by the A.R.B. In fact, there are some 17 special conditions which the A.R.B. have applied to American jet aircraft; and there are also five special conditions which apply to all American aircraft, piston or jet, swept or straight wing. It is one of these five—that concerned with performance—which is presenting something of a stumbling block.

A significant section of the requirements is that which concerns unstick, rotation and lift-off speeds in relation to the stall. The two authorities, working from different assumptions, calculate the respective speeds in different fashions; and, although the differences are well understood, jet take-off is critical enough (there is now more than a measure of doubt that the airfield performance demanded of the 707-120 by S.R.422 is sufficiently stringent) for the A.R.B. to require compliance by demonstration to British civil airworthiness requirements.

One difference between the S.R.422 and B.C.A.R. requirements is that the latter require demonstration from the ground of an aircraft's ability to unstick from a nose-high attitude. It was thus important for Boeing to show that the 707 was limited by its geometry from entering a ground stall condition during take-off, and this was the reason for the protracted tests at Edwards Air Force Base with a boiler plate and wooden-runner tail bumper. These tests, of course, take time. They are important because on them may rest the amount of payload that the -420 will be able to carry for a given length of concrete; the A.R.B. require double the margin between the minimum unstick speed and the start of rotation if a ground stall can occur. To an aeroplane moving at the take-off speed of the Boeing 707 this increased margin represents many feet of concrete.

The situation is further confused by changed thoughts within the F.A.A. Over the period of Boeing 707 certification, requirements have been revised from S.R.422 to S.R.422A and then to S.R.422B. At the time of writing the situation remains unresolved and delivery date of the -420 to B.O.A.C. Is still uncertain. The conflict between safety and economics is considerable because every percent increase in take-off (i.e., rotation or lift-off) speeds imposes on the operator the need to reduce payload or use more runway. The A.R.B.'s requirements are laid down and are firm, but the application of performance requirements is nearly always "supertuned" to strike the fine balance between practical operation and safety. Boeing must adjust the 707-420 flight manual to meet these requirements while maintaining pressure all the while—by demonstration and by argument—to avoid unnecessary performance margins which could constitute a commercial penalty for the operator.
"Flight" 5/2/60

While Boeing still claim on-the-nail or early delivery for every 707 so far, by the time BOAC's first -420 reaches London this claim will no longer be valid. It came as something of a shock, although not as a complete surprise, that following flight tests by D. P. Davies, the Air Registration Board's chief test pilot, British approval of the 707 was still withheld. The issues are quite separate from those affecting take-off performance.

Unease at the aircraft's behaviour is apparently concerned with the three training incidents which occurred last year, two of which resulted in fatal accidents. In each case, it was lateral behaviour of the aircraft at slow speeds that was called to question, although it is believed that the initiating actions were quite different in each case. The two incidents in which engines were shed—over France in February and Seattle in September—were apparently the result of demonstrations, possibly inadvertent, of conditions outside the normal flight envelope. On the other hand the American Airlines' accident over Long Island in August during a two-engine approach in a gusty crosswind could not be explained in this way, although again it was suggested that had a different technique been adopted the accident might have been averted.

From the violent rolling manoeuvre that developed on each occasion it may be inferred that roll and yaw control demands higher-than-average pilot skill under asymmetric thrust, at low speeds, and in adverse conditions—a conclusion that is borne out by Boeing's intention to increase the -420's fin height by a drastic 35in, to add a small ventral fin and to provide full rudder boost on the Boeing 707-120. (The -320 and -420 rudder is already power boosted beyond 15° travel to counter additional engine thrust, and the Qantas -138s were modified similarly before delivery.) Another 707 modification apparently found desirable is duplication of the yaw damper, and this again points to Boeing's persuasion that low-speed flight is a regime where control could be improved. It should be made clear that although the -420s are to be modified at ARB's behest, Boeing have conducted on their own account a similar programme with other aircraft in the 707 series. The first modified 707-420 will be ready for trials in the early part of this month and it will again be flown by Mr Davies before it is finally accepted and handed over to BOAC.

But while it now seems probable that all future 707s may be modified as part of normal design improvement, it is not clear if retrospective action is contemplated, nor who would pay for it if it was. All deliveries made so far have been under FAA certification or validation, and unless this certification standard is changed (and there is ample precedent for this in the past history of 707 approval) it would at first sight seem to be incumbent upon airline customers to request and pay for modification action themselves.

What is involved is a matter of opinion about pilot skill, and perhaps this makes the modifications under discussion different from mere design improvements. As a matter of policy Boeing may thus take responsibility for the modification upon themselves. After the accident at Long Island last year it was questioned whether, with the lessened likelihood of a pilot experiencing full asymmetric turbojet failures, a training demonstration of this kind should now be needed. And the FAA demanded that this type of exercise, tacitly admitted to be a difficult condition with a swept-wing aeroplane, should be attempted only at altitude.

The ARB's insistence on modification suggests a philosophy that if a redeemable failure case exists, it must be demonstrated, and pilots must be trained to handle it. Indeed, looking back on the FAA's "high altitude only" rule, it is easy to argue now that this could only have been thought of as an interim measure and that the FAA too must be concerned that low-speed asymmetric control must be improved until it is no longer a hazard.

Looking at the particular modifications a little more closely, the fin extension (and rudder boost in the case of the -120) are obvious ways of improving asymmetric-thrust control at low speeds. This is adversely affected by sideslip or yaw of the swept wings, because rudder tab effectiveness is reduced. Another gain will accrue from the ventral fin. It has incidentally been suggested that this fin could act as a tail bumper and so reduce any penalties that may result from an excessively nose-high ground angle. The full take-off story has yet to be told, but it now seems to have been successfully demonstrated that the geometry of the 707-420 is such that ground stall does not occur and that only revision of the flight manual requires to be completed.

megan 18th Jan 2015 01:04

mustafagander, I see where you may be coming from re the ARB. Flight 3/5/60.

Finally, there was the matter of timing for the introduction of certain product improvements on which Boeing have for some time had an active programme. These were in the areas of ability to trim-out in certain conditions of asymmetrical power; pilot's rudder-bar feel; and the long-period divergency of dutch roll if left uncorrected and with automatic yaw damper off. The FAA has been closely integrated with this programme and are seeking introduction of this package of improvements as soon after approval as reasonably possible. Their experiences with the aircraft, and knowledge of it, undoubtedly justified this position and over 80 aircraft of the general type are in commercial use in passenger carriage. The ARB, however, judged these improvements to be so basic that they demanded their approval and introduction as a condition precedent to validation of the certificate.

These kinds of differences of opinion can be expected between any two groups of competent experts, and although in the certification of the 707-436 they have persisted to our cost and delay, it is not too much to hope that in the future the requirements may become asymptotic to the truth.
1960 | 0660 | Flight Archive

RedhillPhil 18th Jan 2015 16:43


Originally Posted by evansb (Post 8824392)

Just for the benefit of an ignoramus.........
What/why are those sort of rounded fins at the loud end of the engines?

blind pew 18th Jan 2015 16:46

Engineers fingers.....
or maybe diffusers which mix the hot gases and reduce the noise...

Haraka 18th Jan 2015 17:13

.. I dread to think what the noise levels were like without them.
It was such a blessed relief when the big fans began arriving in the U.K. at the beginning of the 70's, heralding a more acceptable noise footprint ( and the beginning of the end of international long haul air travel for just an elite).

mustafagander 19th Jan 2015 09:21

They are diffusers which, allegedly, reduce the noise.

As you say Haraka, I shudder to think about the noise levels of the bare engine!!

bugged on the right 19th Jan 2015 09:46

Fascinating stuff reading about the British certification of the 707. I wonder how this would go these days with TTIP? I wonder if the manufacturer would be suing the CAA for something or other because US certification criteria was not quietly and immediately accepted?
As an aside, I far prefer gas guzzling, noisy, smoke belching aeroplanes which looked good and went fast. Far more character than the insipid crap that staggers about at .78 and flies itself you get today. Yes I know.

FANS 19th Jan 2015 10:15

Were the PAX in these days much more exclusive than today, or was there still a mixed bag of people?

vctenderness 19th Jan 2015 13:05

I would say yes to both of those questions.

Lots of passengers were senior civil servants, diplomats etc. the dress codes were very formal men wore suits and ties the ladies dressed up pretty much.

On the other hand there were lots of ordinary folks from different parts of the world probably taking a trip of a lifetime. I remember taking lots and lots of 'ten pound Poms' on their way to a new life in Oz.

Passengers in First Class were very much upper crust. Lots of Lords, Lady's and Knights and American movie stars crossing the pond.

In those days the oil rich Arabs hadn't got around to buying their own aircraft and would often buy the whole First Class cabin for themselves and relatives and staff.

Many a BOAC crew member wore a gold Rolex watch with the Sheiks face on and many Stewardesses drove E types, one in shocking pink:ok:

ZOOKER 19th Jan 2015 16:49

mustafagander,
I would guess the noise levels without the suppressors would be similar to a VC10. The BOAC 707-436s, like the VC10s, had Rolls-Royce Conways fitted.
I suspect there would be a difference in 'tone' though as the loudspeakers weren't clustered together.

dixi188 19th Jan 2015 18:36

It's a shame that a VC-10 and BAC1-11 weren't kept airworthy to fly around airports to show what real noise is and silence the moaners.
If you don't like aircraft noise, don't live near an airport.

Sorry, a bit of thread drift.

ExSp33db1rd 19th Jan 2015 19:28


If you don't like aircraft noise, don't live near an airport.
Having some affinity with Santa Monica Airport, California, where the "do-gooders" are trying to close it down, I sport a bumper sticker that is available from the airport "shop" stating " I LOVE aeroplane noise" I don't use it in Santa Monica tho' - wouldn't want a brick through my window !

.

.......Stewardesses drove E types, one in shocking pink
I well remember that one !

ZOOKER 19th Jan 2015 21:04

dixi,
Loving your work. :E
I recently attended a conference, held under G-BOAC. One of the key speakers was Sir Howard Davies, who was asked why the present noise criteria, used in airport and runway planning, relate to these classic aircraft, rather than the modern quiet jets such as the A388/B787/E190.
Surprisingly, he didn't know the answer.

Airclues 20th Jan 2015 09:13

VC10 rather than 707 but this film, made in the 60's has some good info on BOAC operations and pilot training;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ppjh8lg_8

Georgeablelovehowindia 20th Jan 2015 14:00

Now it can be told.
 
"It then roared off the runway with the distinctly satisfying sound of the air being chopped violently with a blunt knife."

Switzerland - The Precision of the Swiss, by Gerry Catling (1968)

:)

GAZIN 20th Jan 2015 15:51

Fully loaded VC10's were rare in this part of Essex, but a BAC1-11 at the end of the runway, just as the water injection cut in, was a sound to behold. This was before the so called hush kits were fitted of course. :ok:

FANS 28th Jan 2015 09:09

I wonder then if the cross section of society that flew with the £10 poms was indeed that different to today.

Is it not the sheer volume of people that are flying, as at T5 at least, you don't feel you're at a stag weekend at 6am on Friday morning.

What I'm getting at is if you fly were to fly first, is the experience that different to the so called golden era?

pax britanica 28th Jan 2015 17:22

Re the noise while the VC10 was incredibly noise on the outside it was lovely inside, compare that to a 436 or PW turboJET (JT 3B/C) powered version (SABENA in my experience) and well there is no comparison. Take off power on the &)&s with these engines shook the whole plane violently and made the most incredible noise as four straight jets belched out unburnt JetA1 and water methanol in a dark stream and you felt your ear drums would burst. Oddly after going back to climb power it seemed quite quiet but that may have been temporary deafness induced by the preceding 90 seconds or ear trauma.
Of thread but it wasnt just the 707 VC10 pairing either, there were a decent number of Conway powered DC8s (Srs 40?) which were equally noisy in spite of having enormous retractable iron 'silencers' (!!) on the engines which slid rearwards on take off to try and moderate the row.
Much more excitign though than watching a 777 depart though.

On approach though i think the Conways were much quieter than the fanjet engined versions (P&W JT3Ds) which screamed like banshees with gear and flaps down and blocked out the sound track as they flew over the Hounslow cinema I often went to.

I ahd to laugh at the earlier posters idea of resurecting a Conway &)& and flying it over Richmond and Windsor to demonstrate what real aircraft noise is-or sadly (in a way) was.

PB

Stanley1 29th Jan 2015 00:49

The Conway could be flight idle on finals where as the jt3b needed to be at 80 percent because of its slow acceleration from idle.

Airbanda 29th Jan 2015 09:30

IME of watching 28 arrivals from Hatton Cross area the 707 was the noisiest of all. Actually painful to hear - as implied above some was probably aerodynamic noise as well as engines.

Discorde 1st Feb 2015 12:47

One of the blockbuster's 707 legs will probably be HNL to LAX or SFO, daytime ops. Was Loran available for the whole route? If not, apart from sun posn lines, were there other nav techniques apart from DR?

Thanks for info.

Spooky 2 1st Feb 2015 12:56

Good Loran was available along these routes both day and night. Cel nav was a back-up until dual Doppler came along and then the Loran was used to back that up. The joke was if you were going from HNL to LAX and when you hit land fall and there were no lights you should make an immediate left turn since you are probably over Mexico.

Lordflasheart 1st Feb 2015 20:34

Consol/Consolan
 
Discorde - You could throw in a couple of position lines from the SFI Consol (Consolan) station that Spooky 2 remembers from this thread a while back -
See his post 32. Your man will have to know how to count ....

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...on-aids-2.html

LFH

Spooky 2 2nd Feb 2015 10:45

Ah yes the Consolan station up near the Pt Reyes VOR. Used on occasion just for grins but don't recall ever needing to use it for a position check.


Regarding the LORAN reception...as I recall there was a LORAN station near Barking Sands on the Hawaiian chain and another one up near Anchorage. They created excellent LOPs to work from when going back and forth to HNL.

Discorde 2nd Feb 2015 12:50

Thanks chaps. Yet more questions:

Which F/D did the BOAC 707s have: Collins, Smiths (or none)

How was A/P hdg adjusted: bug on capt's HSI or remotely?

How noisy was the cockpit? Was 'headsets off' feasible for oceanic/HF/SELCAL ops?

Were there two Loran sets for redundancy?

Thanks (again) for info.

WHBM 2nd Feb 2015 16:55

Am I correct that you could home in on BBC Radio 2 long wave at Daventry from halfway across the Atlantic, getting you to within 80 miles of London ? Did you have the kit to give the direction ?

Meikleour 2nd Feb 2015 17:36

Discorde:

Flight Director was a Collins(forget the marque) with command "diamonds" at the extreme edges of the instrument. Thus a left turn command caused the diamonds to rotate anti-clockwise, then as the bank angle was reached they then moved clockwise to line up. Very un-intuitive!

Heading changes by both HSI knob and centre panel turn controller.

Cockpit - noisy. Same as B737 but faster (ie. M0.79) hence more wind noise.

Headsets were kept on one ear since the quick fit O2 mask clipped onto the headset.

BBC Droitwich transmitter tuned on the ADF and pointed!

Discorde 2nd Feb 2015 18:29

Thanks for your input, Meikleour.


The joke was if you were going from HNL to LAX and when you hit land fall and there were no lights you should make an immediate left turn since you are probably over Mexico.
Nice one! Might use that in the saga :ok:

Airbanda 2nd Feb 2015 19:04


Am I correct that you could home in on BBC Radio 2 long wave at Daventry from halfway across the Atlantic, getting you to within 80 miles of London ? Did you have the kit to give the direction ?
The former Radio 2 Long Wave transmitter using 1500m/200khz (now Radio 4 198khz) is at Droitwich. Daventry, closed in the nineties, was Short Wave for the Empire/World Service. Dav's claim to fame is that it provided the signals for proving the concept of radar in experiments carried out barely a mile from where I sit now.

ian16th 2nd Feb 2015 19:13

I lived in Droitwich for my last 6 years in the UK.

As I drove past the Tx, on my way into Brum every morning, I received Radio 4 on the car radio, irrespective of which frequency the car radio was tuned to! Or if it was on an AM or FM waveband.

Capetonian 2nd Feb 2015 19:21


Were the PAX in these days much more exclusive than today, or was there still a mixed bag of people?
I was reading the easyJet report yesterday regarding the extra runway for LHR or LGW debate and was surprised to read that 85% of LGW pax are leisure/VFR, and 65% of LHR pax the same. I would have expected a higher proportion of business travellers, particularly out of LHR.

Stanley1 2nd Feb 2015 21:55

707-436
 
I think the 436 had KIFIS. Kolsman integrated flight instrument system as it was called then.

evansb 3rd Feb 2015 23:10

BOAC Boeing 707-436 G-APFO c/n 17716 at Honolulu 19 January 1969. Photo HW Bailey (c):
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/...ab80da75c6.jpg

ExSp33db1rd 4th Feb 2015 00:15


I think the 436 had KIFIS. Kolsman integrated flight instrument system as it was called then.
Agreed.


Were there two Loran sets for redundancy?
No.

Consol - maximum 60 counts. i.e. dots, gradually building up to a single tone then gradually subsiding to positive dashes. One might count 20 dots and 32 dashes = 52, the missing 8 in the constant tone would be divided between dots and dashes, halved and added to each, so count would be 24 dots, which would be the position line to plot from the consol grid printed on the chart ( the first character, be it dots or dashes decided the type of count.)

One tried to hear as many positive dots or dashes as possible before the tone created a discrepancy, thereby reducing the error, so one would be straining to hear the difference, having got to, say, 26, 27, 28 when the door would burst open and a female voice would shout - "anyone for a cup of tea?" Oh, Christ, shut up, start again - 1,2,3,4 and so on!

There was also a Consol station at Nantucket ( 194 Kc ? ) but in my experience, if by the time one was in range one needed it then one had bigger problems to consider ! I don't recall it being much use on the N.Atl. tracks that we normally used.

There seemed to be a tendency to get slightly South of track when on a Southerly track approaching 10 West from the West - or maybe it was just me not paying attention. One of the old Coastal Command skippers agreed with me, and reckoned that there was a "blip" in the magnetic variation printed on the chart at that point.

Happy Days.

WHBM 4th Feb 2015 11:43


Originally Posted by evansb (Post 8852634)
BOAC Boeing 707-436 G-APFO c/n 17716 at Honolulu 19 January 1969. Photo HW Bailey (c):

Aloha Airlines BAC One-Eleven 200 to the left of the Pan Am fin in the background (and maybe a second one alongside it behind the Pan Am).

evansb 4th Feb 2015 20:03

Re: Aloha BAC 1-11 (Thread drift) - Yes, I believe you are correct. Is that an Aloha Viscount tail visible just above the aft portion of the 707's fuselage?
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/...20Viscount.jpg

Instruments 2nd Nov 2015 17:57

Kollsman Sky Compass
 
Hello Lordflasheart, do you know how can I get a pdf of the operating instructions for the Kollsman Sky Compass? I have a Kollsman and a Russian Sky Compasses and I would like to compare them as both claim a precision of ½ deg.

Lordflasheart 3rd Nov 2015 08:00

Hi, Instruments -

Apart from the extract from my 707 flying manual shown in my Post 137 Jan 8th 2015 in this thread, the short answer is no, sorry. My local Nav God has recently been carried away to the stars so I can't ask him just yet. ExSp33db1rd (of this parish) was another Nav God and may well have more, as he is still going strong.

I only used the Kollsman and Kelvin Hughes periscopic sextants. Never used the Kollsman Sky Compass, which was fitted only on BOAC 707-336 aircraft for polar daytime nav (London to Anchorage) where two Navs were carried. I believe its full title was the "Kollsman Polarised Sky Light Compass."

I suspect that anything more than the page referred to above could well have been passed on by personal instruction in flight.

I don't think I have anything more, but I will have a look around.

LFH

Discorde 9th Nov 2015 11:38

I might have to divert my 707 into Sondestromfjord. Latterly the approach into BGSF was LOC/DME. Was that the case in the late 1960s? Was there SRA or PAR available? Did crews use weather radar to assist with nav (terrain) orientation?

Thanks for info.

Edit: The field was under USAF control in the 1960s, so the approach aids would presumably have catered for military aircraft.


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