Ljubljana air crash 1966
 

Hello everyone. I came across your forum whilst doing some research on the Ljubljana air crash of 1966. The aircraft was a Bristol 175 Britannia 102 operated by Britannia Airways, registration G-ANBB. My aunt was, I believe, an air hostess on that flight and was tragically one of the casualties, and as a complete newbie to this field could anyone advise me how I might find out more information or a list of crew. I was only 12 at the time and it all rather passed me by, but now I want to find out more about this. Many thanks in advance.

An article 1968 | 1853 | Flight Archive

Official report seems to be available Report on the Accident to Britannia G-ANBB at Ljubljana, Yugoslavia on 1st ... - Great Britain. Board of Trade, H.M.S.O. - Google Books

In simple terms, the crew had set their altimeters to a datum which indicated altitude above mean sea level (QNH), rather than the datum which indicates height above touchdown(QFE).

Due to the terrain elevation, they were much closer to the ground than they thought they were; descending to a cleared height above touchdown with the wrong datum meant that the aircraft flew into the ground under control.

In those days, neither radio altimeters nor ground proximity warning systems (GPWS) were fitted to such aircraft.

Nowadays, the approach is flown using QNH and GPWS is a mandatory requirement. The controller will also have a direct indication of the aircraft's altitude from secondary surveillance radar information transmitted automatically by the aircraft.

Incredible that QFE is still in use by some pilots. The dangers of QFE usage were discussed in this thread.

Not only some pilots but the Royal Air Force I believe

I 'spotted' NBB at Ringway in the 60's and remember well the news it has crashed.

Start of a journey of realisation that not everything that took off came back.

SGC

Don't know where you are located but in my experience if you radio for airfield info they will pass you the the runway in use and QFE. Don't think I've ever been passed QNH. Having said that I agree with you, be a lot easier just to stick to one system, and 22/04 is right, the RAF always use QFE.

When passed QFE by ATC I do not read it back. If challenged I reply (courteously) 'using QNH and field elevation'. For MATZ transit I read back the clearance as given (including QFE) but fly the transit on QNH + field elevation, rounded up or down to the nearest 100 ft.

Discorde wrote:

Why do you find it so difficult to transit using the pressure datum passed by the MATZ controller?

:rolleyes:

The procedure I described avoids the potential hazard of mis-setting the altimeter subscale prior to MATZ entry and again on exiting.

When did commercial/public transport stop using QFE?

My recollection as an airband listener in the seventies, mostly at Leeds/Bradford, was that aircraft were initially descended to altitudes on QNH after handover from Manchester but transitioned to QFE/height before intercepting localiser and glideslope. These would be BA Viscounts, Air Anglia Friendships and Dan-Air 748s

If SRA was in use clearance was given to 1500 feet QFE for runway 33 with further descent from 5 miles on a 3degree g/s. For runway 15 height to 5 miles was greater as the slope was 3.25degrees due terrain clearance. In either case check heights were given along with vectors as the approach continued.

I guess one factor now is that radio altimeter will give precise height during the final approach.

While QNH only seems fine for 2 crew commercial operation with SoP's etc in force I'm still not convinced I'd want to use it solo in a light/micro. Rather know where I am wrt elevation of base/destination runway. Mentally adding six hundred and something for Leeds (or four hundred or so for Sywell) just seems unnecessary effort/complication.

Americans use QNH for all approaches, and it does them no harm. I prefer QNH day to day (it's not hard to work out your height above TDZE when you have the evelevation listed on every IAC). The only time I preferred the use of QFE was circuit training as it's easier for people to work things out using big round number such as 500' or 1000'. It's one thing less for them to try and work out.

See:
ASN Aircraft accident Bristol 175 Britannia 102 G-ANBB Ljubljana-Brnik Airport (LJU)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britan...ays_Flight_105

and

1968 | 1853 | Flight Archive

Britannia air crash 1966 enquiry
 

Hi,

I may be able to give you some information although it is well documented as to likely cause etc.

As for other crew members, this would typically only be obtainable from press reports since I imagine the information might be restricted or simply unavailable now.

However, the First Officer was a highly skilled pilot who, from age of 21 years, was a POW for three years and won high praise after the war was over for managing to land a military aircraft which had only one wheel down on approach. Beyond that, it would only be personal stuff which I doubt is relevant to your enquiry. He was my father and left three young boys, of which I was the youngest, at three. Pilot error was concluded and the evidence seemed clear cut by the settings of both altimeters. My family never truly recovered from the horror of that day and, no doubt, nor did many of the other families. This has been difficult to write but I hope I have been some help.

Peter

Peter 666, I can well imagine this sort of family tragedy casts a very long shadow, so thank you for your post which sheds further light on the crash.

Looking at the pax manifest it appears that 18 passengers and one crew member survived. I wonder if any of them could be traced and their experience of the night recorded?

Britannias remain one of my favourite airliners.

SGC

Airbanda. AirUK stopped the use of QFE with the introduction of the Fokker 100 in 1992. Two reasons. Firstly the rate of climb of a jet, which on departure or go-around can easily bust levels without very quick changes in settings. Secondly, on the F100 the electronic flight instruments had one push-button to change from QNH to STD and vice-versa. Using QFE would just add another potential SNAFU into the operation.

Peter thanks for that post. Terrible that you lost your Dad under those circumstances.

None of us will ever know what went on between the crew members on that fateful day. It is easy to say that both altimeters were miset which is clearly factual.

However the reasons behind that altimeter miset are something that we now will never know.

Your Dad defended his country in time of war (as did mine) and for that we should be very proud of their bravery and achievements.

Flying aircraft in those days was not quite the piece of cake it is these days. Some will disagree with that statement but I stand by it.


Kind regards
Exeng

My great uncle Stan was an engineer on this flight and died when the plane went down his But wish was to see England win the World Cup which he saw about a month before the crash

Interesting resurrection of a long forgotten thread.

Can you give more details of his flying career, how he came to be on the fateful flight?

SGC

Thanks for info
 

Hello, I have just revisited this thread that I started last year and I'd just like to thank everyone for their replies and information, especially Peter and Stuche who also lost relatives. It must have been difficult for you and I appreciate it.