There was a very nice T Tail model on display in Boeing's Training School when I was there in Mar 83, but I am almost certain it had a Boeing Colour Scheme

Wot like the Ant 124 you mean?
( No ,I don't know either, following on from the Il -76 and referencing the Lockheed C141 and C5 and even the proposed "Jet Belfast" it certainly surprised me when it emerged.)

Sorry about the thread drift......

That would have been an AE flight from BKK or Penang routing - KHI - IST - LGW ?

how on earth did you manage KHI - LGW non stop with 229 pax - wow

I managed to fly Puerto Plata to Manchester with almost a full load in just 8.50....... way back in '95.

I tried to do POP to LGW in '94, but chickened out and went to Cardiff for some gas after 8hrs 20mins. It was a VERY full load of 233 and some very old 'children' on the load sheet,(if you see what I mean)!!

My first of several fam flights in the '90s was on G-BIKV with Capt Dickson and F/O Wales. They were the kindest hosts from pre flight to Helsinki right through to shutdown on the return. The feeling of being up front as the -535C's spooled up remains to this day. As does the sporty initial climb. And such a roomy office.... on a future MD80 trip I happened to mention to the Alitalia skipper my first trip up front having been on the 75. He smiled wistfully, as we taxied BEHIND CONCORDE to 27R, saying "ah, no fold down jumpseat in the doorway for you there- you could get a couch in the 75 deck...."

Such happy days.

I wonder if that puts you in the 757 record books ? KHI-LGW with 229 pax in 9h 5m

I was Ops controller at Ogdens when we handled AE until the end so we may have met....I often wandered out to the 757's to see how the turnarounds were going...A few pals were AE CC too
Flew AE (and MON) 757 as pax LGW-BAH-CMB-MLE a few times on my hols....a looooong drag to get to a desert island

HS.134 with RB.178 engines

http://www.aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AE/AE71-7/19-2.jpg

Very much a 757 before the 757 but of course at that time British industry wouldn't start any project without Government backing, so it was filed away.

Meanwhile Boeing took out commercial loans and go on with work.

Ah the secret RB-178 engine turbofan prototype which was originally known as the "Super Conway". This was the first large three-shaft commercial high by-pass ratio turbofan designed by Rolls-Royce in 1966; it was intended to power the following:-

Hawker-Siddeley HS-132 & HS-134 "projects"
BAC VC-10 DB265 "project". RB.178-14 27,500lbs thrust version. (double decker)
Bréguet Br.124 "project".
Shorts SC5 ./45 "project". Belfast with jets

A 44,000lbs thrust version was rejected in favour of the competitive Pratt & Whitney JT9-D turbofan for the Boeing 747 in 1966 but for the refusal of Boeing to accept the Rolls-Royce engine on the transatlantic 747.

The RB.178 engine was never flight-tested and never went into production as most of the intended applications remained unbuilt "projects"
The RB 207 intended for the abortive original Airbus A-300" project" of 1967/68 - went on to become the RB211 engine first used on the Lockheed L-1011 TriStar

That sketch of the HS.134 caused me to dig out Graziano Freschi's excellent book "The BAC Three-Eleven". The following is his description:

"The HS134 study was launched in 1966 on the basis of a radical development of the Trident airliner...to be powered by two RB178 high bypass turbofans mounted on pylons under the wing. The later was based on a high aspect ratio, highly efficient supercritical design. The Trident cockpit and fuselage width were retained, but the stretched fuselage and low tailplane mounted at the end of the fuselage gave the aircraft the general appearance of the much later Boeing 757....The only good that came out of Hawker Siddeley's effort on the HS134 was the know-how on advanced supercritical aerofoils and on the general aircraft configuration (large wing mounted engines), knowledge that the company later put to good use in helping with design of the Airbus A.300"

So HS pretty much defined the configuration of the modern under-wing turbofan twin, both narrow and widebody

Are you suggesting that the design of the 737, launched in 1964, was influenced by the HS134 two years later ?

Was the 737 fitted with high bypass turbo fans at launch then?

No, obviously not. But the assertion didn't specify high-bypass fans:

So substituting Boeing for HS in that statement would be more accurate.

Dave, respectfully, no. I inserted the high bypass bit, the original statement regarding turbofans should still stand.

Maybe it would be possible to suggest that Boeing's underslung turbojet installations owe their origins to the He 280 :}?

Not really, as I did not use the words low-bypass, which would be applicable to the 737.

Thanks HQ for getting my drift. I thought reference to the RB178 alone was the pointer to the modern configuration supposition

More like the Me262 really when wing planform and empennage are also considered. . .

I think you'll find that the only Boeings with underslung turbojets (as opposed to turbofans) have either 4, 6 or 8 of them. :O

I'd have defined those as pylon mounted, still, everyday's a learning day.

Happy to help.

You've not been asked the question at interview, then. :O

PPRuNe: Advantages of underslung engines

Interesting that BA planned a 200-seat 'economy' config for the B752 (post #71). Most charter operators squeezed in 235 seats. I once asked a Boeing engineer looking into condensation problems on our fleet whether the extra pax breathing out moist air had anything to do with the problem. His response: 'It has everything to do with the problem.'

The 757 was pleasant enough to fly although most dual-rated pilots preferred the 767. The 75's speedbrake wasn't too effective. Some cynics said pulling the lever activated an 'airframe buffet' device to con you into thinking you were getting a response of some sort.

No, you are correct, I don't know who would ask such a question, though most of the answers in the link do refer to or imply, pylon mounted, podded engines as opposed to the nacelle directly attached to the wing structure in the way early 737s and Me 262s were built.

To be fair, I think my differentiation is more precise :ok:

I've been asked questions a lot stranger than that in interviews. :O

Really? - in my experience most pilots preferred to fly the 757 as they wanted to get there before the bar shut. :p

Hi there sorry to reopen this thread, are there any BA ex 757 drivers/engineers out there?

I would like to ask a question - the a/c with reg G-BMRA-RJ - were any of them delivered with RB211-535-E4 engines and later refitted with 535-C?

If that is the case - can anybody give a reason why?

(theres a few pints resting on the answer!!)

Many thanks if anybody can shine some light on this!

With the first BY deliveries being Feb 1984...B767-204 MSN 22980 G-BKPW, a non ER high density pax config aircraft with twin over wing exits. (as were all of the BY 767-200)

None of those early fleet 757's of BA's you mention were re-engined - nor were the few that AE obtained under a -236 BA order

why? not sure but I guess they were not required on the longer routes which eventually saw the E4 a/c used (LCA IST TLV ATH for example)
many went to DHL who did not re-engine them

Monarch re-engined their first few - with G-MONE IIRC arriving first with E4's

I was an Air Europe 757 Capt in 1993 and remember our first 757, GBKRM being re-engined not long after after the first summer.

Sorry old chap not BKRM with E4's - must have been another one - pics in 2007 still show her sold off still with 535C engines

AE also leased in 1983 BIKF in BA colours
(BKRM was going to be BIKE with BA but NTU and went to AE)

I cannot think what AE 757 was/were re-engined....I'll have a dig lol

I won't argue with you, but I flew the Air Europe 757 for ten years and the only original engines were on KRM and IKF. KRM was re-engined after the first summer. We only had IKF for the first summer.

BA 757 G-BIKA to IKZ and MRA to MRJ.

In fact towards the end of these deliveries, BA was buying used C engines from Eastern, as Eastern were re engining all their B757 with E4 engines, and fitting them to new B757s at the factory.
BA did not see the need to re-engine as the average stage length/shuttle routes was short, even though the E4 had 10-15% lower fuel consumption than the C.

BA finally went for the E4 engine with PEA onwards which was originally bought for charter subsidiary Caledonian, and needed ETOPS approval for MCO.
All subsequent BA deliveries were E4 engines, because there were no more C engines

Monarch Airlines
G-MONB-D delivered with 535C engines (but all later re-engined with E4 engines)
G-MONE and after delivered with 535E4 engines

Air Europe
G-BKRM, G-BIKF, G-BPGW, G-BLVH delivered/leased with 535C engines (and retained)
Later Air Europe and Air Europa deliveries had 535E4 engines

LTS
D-AMUR-T delivered with 535C engines (and retained)

We would have met!! - as I was Duty Officer with Ogdens (we handled you) and I was always out at the AE and UX 757 turnarounds both long haul (and ETOPS) and the short hauls...

As for BKRM maybe she had new 535C's fitted?
but the photo in 2012 clearly shows no E4's under the wings

some history on her here 22176 ? MvN's Boeing 757 Website

For all who took the time to reply - many thanks indeed!

The beers wont be on me then.....

Well done. I remember taxying RM into the slot next to the airport early in the summer of 83 when a large window facing the pan shattered due to the strange noise the engines used to make at idle as we shut down.

I never worked the -535C, but my recollection is that the engine/aircraft interface didn't change between the 535C and the 535-E4 (just maybe some pin selections for the EICAS and FMC to account for the different engine limits and fuel burn).
If my memory is correct, it's not impossible that a particular aircraft might have switched between -535C and -535-E4 more than once. Aircraft comes in for heavy maintenance, they drop the engines and send them off to overhaul, then install whatever type they have a pair of handy (I'm pretty sure intermix wasn't allowed so both engines would need to be the same type).

Yes indeed - there was never a case of mixed engine types on the same air-frame.

Also a 535C (as built and fitted) aircraft was never temporarily fitted with E4 engines - They only had a full re-engine if the carrier or lessor wanted such, as has been noted above with the various fleet listings.

A new leased Monarch air-frame G-DRJC was not built with ETOPS and MON/OM wanted to do an ETOPS fit on her, but the lessor refused so an older ex 535C air-frame G-MONB had to chosen to have the ETOPS fit.

A quote from a chap (Red 5) some years ago here on Pprune who was a MON engineer -
NB was not the first choice, G-DRJC was the logical choice but the owner ILFC did not want it altered, therefore as the company had already committed to a very heavy Orlando programme and needed six aircraft NB reluctantly became the next aircraft to be converted.
The reason the company did not want to convert NB to ETOPS standard was due to the fact that being such an earlier build aircraft, the amount of modifications involved including major changes to the equipment cooling system was far more extensive than later build aircraft. However the task was completed and it has been a far better aircraft compared to NC.
G-MONB had a special status among British registered 757's.
It's old when she retired, & was the first of a type that really transformed the reputation of the holiday charter airlines and different mission requirements.

Quote from Tempsford -
The move to take the B757 was a major contributor to Monarch's survival in a very competitive market (1983) and a very shrewd one made when they still had Bristol Britannia's !.
MON/OM were also in the leading pack regarding EROPS (1988). Overcoming the ''if it ain't got four engines'' school of thought was hard work, but look at the situation now, few even bat an eyelid when they board a two engine aircraft for a long flight (few know what EROPS is)

Monarch converted 6 757 to ER config G-MONB, NJ, NE, NK, KE, & JB

Quote from Brakedwell -
I flew G-BKRM at Moses Lake on the 31st March 1983, the first time it had been flown by Air Europe pilots. We returned to UK with it on the 6th of April.
G-BIKF was operated by AE during the 1983 summer season.

Great memories of possibly my favourite airliner. The irreplaceable 757.

Easy! Engines Run Or Passengers Swim :}
I always thought it made a better acronym than ETOPS - Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim - just doesn't come across the same :O

The pylons were structurally different for the two engine types. At one time BA a had a C powered aircraft with a cracked pylon and it was hoped that a replacement pylon could be bought surplus to AA their C to E mod programme but none could be found, presumed scrapped, so a costly and lengthy repair to the original pylon had to be carried out.

That's interesting. I know the pylon differed between RR- and PW-powered 757s, as one might expect, but I'm surprised that Rolls and Boeing between them couldn't keep a common pylon across the 535 variants.