V-bomber rear crew ejection system - photograph
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V-bomber rear crew ejection system - photograph
I have been trying to find a once easily accessible photograph of the Martin Baker proposal for a V-Bomber 3x rear crew ejection system; indeed it is more than likely it was also here on PPrune! However, a frustrating morning has been expended in trawling the internet and the PPrune archives to try and locate it, but to no avail. Anyone got a copy of it? (And please no sanctimonious comments about 'after 2 minutes researching the internet...' - I have been searching religiously for it; promise.)
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Them's the ones!! Many thanks CC 👍
So who goes after the Nav Plotter in the centre? Nav Radar or AEO?
Or was it based on seniority?
"So tell me Bloggs, do you want to train as a Nav Plotter or Nav Radar?"
"Which one sits in the centre seat, Sir?"
Or was it based on seniority?
"So tell me Bloggs, do you want to train as a Nav Plotter or Nav Radar?"
"Which one sits in the centre seat, Sir?"
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"So who goes after the Nav Plotter in the centre? Nav Radar or AEO?"
both go off at once but canted about 10 degrees to each side - makes a sort of fleur de lys pattern much appreciated by those watching safely below
both go off at once but canted about 10 degrees to each side - makes a sort of fleur de lys pattern much appreciated by those watching safely below
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Given the size of the hole in the roof, that would be some trick if you could do it! I recall in the allied article that went with the photos (unable to find now, hence the op) that the ejections were sequential but completed in circa 2 secs; in the heat of the moment that would have seemed like FOREVER, but a helluva improvement on the manual bailout.
I've got a copy of the trials report for this system, somewhere.
IIRC the sequence was fixed and automatic, there was no "After you old boy. No, I insist, after you" between the Radar Nav and the AEO.
IIRC the sequence was fixed and automatic, there was no "After you old boy. No, I insist, after you" between the Radar Nav and the AEO.
Given the size of the hole in the roof, that would be some trick if you could do it! I recall in the allied article that went with the photos (unable to find now, hence the op) that the ejections were sequential but completed in circa 2 secs; in the heat of the moment that would have seemed like FOREVER, but a helluva improvement on the manual bailout.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
I thought the two outside members went out canted, but inwards, again sequenced. Remember, they weren't rocket seats, so no-one was going to get fried. I've seen a diagram of it somewhere.
At the risk of involuntary ejection for double posting 
here is the explanation of the sequencing I posted on the Mil Av forum Eject! Eject! thread
here is the explanation of the sequencing I posted on the Mil Av forum Eject! Eject! thread
Timelord, the answer as given by Brian Miller once of Martin Baker, can be found in Journal 37 of the RAF Historical Society. (Brian Miller was the man who persuaded Embraer to put bang seats in the Tucano)
Quote:
Quote:
The V-bomber Saga
Martin had long been concerned about the lack of ejection seats for the rearward-facing rear crew members in all three V bombers. He had developed a rearward-facing ejection seat for the Valiant, demonstrating its practicability when, in 1960, ex-RAF parachute instructor, W T ‘Doddy’ Hay, made a rearward facing ejection from the back of a Valiant over Chalgrove. In the other two V-bombers, ejection seats had been installed for the test pilots only because it was intended that production aircraft would have jettisonable crew cabins that would be recovered by parachute. When it became apparent that these crew capsules had been abandoned, Martin lobbied hard to have ejection seats installed for the entire crew. When a Vulcan crashed on approach to Heathrow on returning from a flight to Australia, and only the pilots survived, Martin became incandescent. The RAF was fully supportive of his efforts on their behalf and the nose section of a scrapped Vulcan was delivered to Denham for the development of rear seat ejection – as a private venture. The pressurised cabin structure precluded the provision of separate hatches for each seat, which would have been the ideal, and instead Martin had to devise a way to eject all three crew members through a single, central, hatch. In typical style, Martin turned the challenge into an advantage by incorporating a command ejection system that would automatically sequence the ejections so that the rear crew could be ejected in the shortest time without risk of collision.
A special rig was constructed to demonstrate the concept. When ejection was initiated, the rear seat shoulder harnesses were tightened automatically to position the rear crew members for ejection. As they were brought back in their seats the chart table, which extended across the width of the cabin, was folded upward by cartridge-powered pistons, to provide leg clearance, and the central hatch was blown. The centre seat and occupant then ejected, allowing, the other rear crew members to cant sideways and eject in turn through the same hatchway. Having proved the concept, the system was installed in the Vulcan crew compartment and was demonstrated very successfully to high level RAF and Ministry officials.
Incredibly the men from the Ministry decreed that ejection seats would not be provided for the rear crew of any of the V-bombers despite the availability of a very practical system. It is a matter of record how many rear crew members were condemned by this decision but what is not so clearly appreciated is the number of pilots who gave their lives by remaining too long with their aircraft while trying to give their crew a chance to live.
Martin had long been concerned about the lack of ejection seats for the rearward-facing rear crew members in all three V bombers. He had developed a rearward-facing ejection seat for the Valiant, demonstrating its practicability when, in 1960, ex-RAF parachute instructor, W T ‘Doddy’ Hay, made a rearward facing ejection from the back of a Valiant over Chalgrove. In the other two V-bombers, ejection seats had been installed for the test pilots only because it was intended that production aircraft would have jettisonable crew cabins that would be recovered by parachute. When it became apparent that these crew capsules had been abandoned, Martin lobbied hard to have ejection seats installed for the entire crew. When a Vulcan crashed on approach to Heathrow on returning from a flight to Australia, and only the pilots survived, Martin became incandescent. The RAF was fully supportive of his efforts on their behalf and the nose section of a scrapped Vulcan was delivered to Denham for the development of rear seat ejection – as a private venture. The pressurised cabin structure precluded the provision of separate hatches for each seat, which would have been the ideal, and instead Martin had to devise a way to eject all three crew members through a single, central, hatch. In typical style, Martin turned the challenge into an advantage by incorporating a command ejection system that would automatically sequence the ejections so that the rear crew could be ejected in the shortest time without risk of collision.
A special rig was constructed to demonstrate the concept. When ejection was initiated, the rear seat shoulder harnesses were tightened automatically to position the rear crew members for ejection. As they were brought back in their seats the chart table, which extended across the width of the cabin, was folded upward by cartridge-powered pistons, to provide leg clearance, and the central hatch was blown. The centre seat and occupant then ejected, allowing, the other rear crew members to cant sideways and eject in turn through the same hatchway. Having proved the concept, the system was installed in the Vulcan crew compartment and was demonstrated very successfully to high level RAF and Ministry officials.
Incredibly the men from the Ministry decreed that ejection seats would not be provided for the rear crew of any of the V-bombers despite the availability of a very practical system. It is a matter of record how many rear crew members were condemned by this decision but what is not so clearly appreciated is the number of pilots who gave their lives by remaining too long with their aircraft while trying to give their crew a chance to live.
"Incredibly the men from the Ministry decreed that ejection seats would not be provided for the rear crew "
perhaps after all this time we can name names?
perhaps after all this time we can name names?
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Could "forgetting" those seats have been an intentional way to avoid them ending up in enemy hands if shot down over enemy land? The rear crew might have had even more top secret detail knowledge about arming and communications beyond what the pilots might have had to know?
John Nichol writing about the issue at length in Eject! Eject! quotes an Air Ministry Statement saying it couldn't be justified on the grounds of low accident rate over first 5 years and the time effort, disruption and cost to modify the V-bombers.
As for the government, you really couldn't make it up:
As for the government, you really couldn't make it up:
Hansard for 25 January 1961
Mr. Cronin
asked the Secretary of State for Air why ejector seats are not provided for all the crew of V-bombers instead of merely for the two pilots, in view of the fact that ejector seats for all the crew are technically possible in V-bombers and are provided for all the crew in the B47, B52, B58 and the proposed B70 bombers of the United States Air Force.
Mr. J. Amery
The rear crew members are, of course, provided with an escape hatch. To fit ejector seats for them would involve a large modification programme and the depletion of Bomber Command's front line over a long period.
Mr. Cronin
Is it not the case that, in the commonest type of emergency, the only way to escape from these bombers is by means of the ejector seats? In view of the unselfishness and high sense of honour which characterise the Royal Air Force, is not the present arrangement most detrimental to the morale of the R.A.F.?
Mr. Amery
No. I am advised that the greater number of accidents take place at high altitudes, when pilots are able, with their ejector seats, to go on piloting while the rest of the crew escape; they then have the advantage of ejection in the latter phase of the accident. When accidents happen at low level, this is not so easy. The hon. Gentleman and I have travelled together in airliners, and in those airliners there were no ejection seats or any other kind of escape apparatus.
Mr. Mulley
If it is not possible for changes to be made in existing aircraft, will not the Secretary of State give an assurance that this point will be considered in any new designs of aircraft undergoing manufacture at present?
Mr. Amery
I should not like to give an assurance at the moment, but I will certainly look into it.
Mr. Cronin
asked the Secretary of State for Air why ejector seats are not provided for all the crew of V-bombers instead of merely for the two pilots, in view of the fact that ejector seats for all the crew are technically possible in V-bombers and are provided for all the crew in the B47, B52, B58 and the proposed B70 bombers of the United States Air Force.
Mr. J. Amery
The rear crew members are, of course, provided with an escape hatch. To fit ejector seats for them would involve a large modification programme and the depletion of Bomber Command's front line over a long period.
Mr. Cronin
Is it not the case that, in the commonest type of emergency, the only way to escape from these bombers is by means of the ejector seats? In view of the unselfishness and high sense of honour which characterise the Royal Air Force, is not the present arrangement most detrimental to the morale of the R.A.F.?
Mr. Amery
No. I am advised that the greater number of accidents take place at high altitudes, when pilots are able, with their ejector seats, to go on piloting while the rest of the crew escape; they then have the advantage of ejection in the latter phase of the accident. When accidents happen at low level, this is not so easy. The hon. Gentleman and I have travelled together in airliners, and in those airliners there were no ejection seats or any other kind of escape apparatus.
Mr. Mulley
If it is not possible for changes to be made in existing aircraft, will not the Secretary of State give an assurance that this point will be considered in any new designs of aircraft undergoing manufacture at present?
Mr. Amery
I should not like to give an assurance at the moment, but I will certainly look into it.
