Aviation History and Nostalgia Whether working in aviation, retired, wannabee or just plain fascinated this forum welcomes all with a love of flight.

Which wing is this?

Old 28th Jan 2023, 17:23
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 548
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Yes this is lots of fun.

If it is a comet then it's KT or DA
Both channel Airways and of course Olympic Airways had ceased flying them by 1972.

This is 1973.


I had just started my career in the holiday airline business the year before and was very involved in charter flight schedules and Monarch Airlines with their britannia's from what I recalled didn't go to Corfu but the Boeing 720b did as did BEA air tours 707s as well and Lakers

at that time no other airlines Britannia or vanguards were going to Corfu.

on the odd occasion Invicta vanguards flew for charter Airlines on a subbing basis down to the Mediterranean

rog747 is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2023, 17:52
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Surrey UK
Age: 74
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I would have put money on a Britannia tail-plane as it is below window level, but the LE joint does not look correct and horn elevator not so visible


aeromech3 is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2023, 18:33
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 14,918
Received 47 Likes on 27 Posts
I think there's too much of whatever-it-is visible for it to be a wingtip from a four-engined turboprop with no evidence of a prop.

Apart from which, the OP seems pretty sure it was a jet.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2023, 18:44
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wildest Surrey
Age: 74
Posts: 10,166
Received 34 Likes on 25 Posts
Originally Posted by rog747
Yes this is lots of fun.

on the odd occasion Invicta vanguards flew for charter Airlines on a subbing basis down to the Mediterranean
If you look at the Vanguards you'll find there's no way you can look downwards at the Vanguard tailplane from the cabin windows; they're well below the tailplane.
chevvron is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2023, 19:33
  #45 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry for going AWOL, I went down with a nasty cold during the afternoon and have only just lemsip maxed myself back into life.

I can't honestly say it wasn't a prop plane of some sort. You kind of accumulate a bundle of memories over time that don't necessarily connect up and I have some thing in my head that says Viscount was a possible type I flew on. But as a rule the fact of planes being jets was built into the tour offer, and I have relatively consistent memories of these early flights. And because my feeling was that we flew Gatwick with KT in a comment on the first trip out (in 1971) and subsequently from Manchester, and the records from Manchester are superb, with only 727-46 G-BAEF flying on this route on 21st May 1973, I think I just had a bit of a premature QED. There's a lot about this that still makes limited sense, and one part is which direction the plane was flying in the "tip" photo and the direction of the approach. I'm on the fence about whether it's a tail fin or a wingtip, and I'm really not concerned about the apparent shape of the window as there may have been some distortion due to the lens or the direction my dad was shooting.

1-11s were a very common type on the route, with various tricks to eke out the range,, and I'd flown on one the preceding year (absolutely no question about this, the whole wing is visible, see below). We chose the packages based on the hotel we liked, which was the Messonghi beach hotel, and I suspect that if that had meant a drive to Gatwick, we'd have done a drive. So I'm checking what flew out of Gatwick too now, where the records aren't nearly as good. I don't believe we ever flew from Luton.

I don't seem to have a working "like" button, but very grateful for everyone who's posted, and I would be hammering on it. When I have new information I'll post it, but please continue with the speculative ideas.


The Alps from what I believe was a Laker 1-11 in May 1972

bisonrav is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2023, 19:39
  #46 (permalink)  
TJW
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 52
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The picture sure looks like it was taken with a wide-angle lens.
However, even with the widest-angle lens, you can't see the top of a tailplane that is above the windows.
This should rule out, e.g., the Comet and the Vanguard.

Note that the window isn't completely round. The "back to the east" picture shows a flat lower edge.

Trident wingtip? Tristar tailplane?
Only wild guesses...
TJW is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2023, 23:01
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: east ESSEX
Posts: 4,352
Received 15 Likes on 10 Posts
I think it is more likely a Britannia tailplane; there is no `external horn balance`,the elevators and ailerons are servo-tabbed,and there is an outer portion of the LE of the tailplane that `appears` to be somewhat discoloured,probably by the engine exhaust/dust.It also appears to have a more symmetrical aerofoil than the 1-11,and is low-set on the fuselage..
You could go to Duxford or Kemble to check.....
sycamore is online now  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 07:04
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Surrey UK
Age: 74
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The leading edge section looks almost a 1/3 of the chord which does not make sense for a BAC 1-11 or Comet 4 wing tip in my books.
aeromech3 is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 09:01
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by treadigraph
I'm tempted to suggest it's the tailplane of something like a Britannia. But as late as '73? Monarch?

Can't find an image that supports the Brit theory though...
Tailplane could be well spotted. I was thinking the old Hershey bar wing of a Cherokee.
cncpc is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 09:20
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 548
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Corfu airport early charter flights

Originally Posted by sycamore
I think it is more likely a Britannia tailplane; there is no `external horn balance`,the elevators and ailerons are servo-tabbed,and there is an outer portion of the LE of the tailplane that `appears` to be somewhat discoloured,probably by the engine exhaust/dust.It also appears to have a more symmetrical aerofoil than the 1-11,and is low-set on the fuselage...You could go to Duxford or Kemble to check.....
Corfu (Ioannis Kapodistrias) International airport, is named after the first Governor of Greece and the first IT charters coming from the UK were from 1965 on Props such as Dan Air Ambassadors, BUA DC-6B, Autair Ambassadors and HS748.
The new International Terminal opened in 1972.
In 1973 the island was still fairly 'new' to the holiday brochures; just appearing for the mass package market.


Here's the thing though chaps;

No Bristol Britannia's in 1973 were going to Corfu from LGW and MAN.

Nor were any other package holiday Prop Jets going down to CFU.
Viscounts were still around until the very early 1970's flying Med IT charters for some Tour Operators from the UK regionals, using BKS, Channel AW, BMA, and Cambrian,
operating from BRS/CWL LPL CDD SEN MME LBA.
Caledonian and Donaldson had still used their Brits on holiday IT's, but Greece was not a usual destination, and by this time they had stopped flying them.

The only airline still flying the Britannia for IT package holidays in 1973 was Monarch (For Cosmos) and from what I recall a Brit was never put on that route for Cosmos, nor flying there for another Tour Company.
IF Monarch ever sent one to CFU (in lieu of a 720B) then it is a very remote possibility, but it would have been a LTN flight, or possibly from BHX.

Incidentally I do not recollect Cosmos Holidays ever featuring Corfu holidays that early on, although the 720B's had arrived in 1971.
(The PPRuNe LTN History MayFly archives might tell us more of those early Monarch 720B movements)
I don't even recall Britannia Airways ever flew their Brits to Corfu for Skytours in the 1960's, not until they got the 737's.
(I will check with old Britannia AW crew I know)

Horizon and 4S were going to Corfu with 1-11 Jets from 1969 - BUA BAC 1-11 500's,
and Laker 1-11's flew for Lord Bros from LGW, and for Arrowsmith from MAN.
Clarksons had been using Dan Air Comets also from 1969 from LTN and MAN, and began using the B727 in 1973.
MATO were flying from BHX using Dan Air.
Cambrian Airways started flying to CFU in 1971 from LPL and BRS/CWL with their 1-11's for Hourmont Travel, then as Cambrian Air Holidays.
BEA's Enterprise and Flair from 1970 used KT Comets to Corfu from LGW and MAN, then their 707's came a year later in 1971.

I first went to Corfu in 1973 and it was a BEA Airtours 707 on an Olympic Holidays charter.
Olympic Holidays were perhaps the first specialist Greek Tour Operator (still going today)

This is a treat -
BAC 1-11 500 1970 Corfu

Later -

Vic Fatah set up Sunmed 'Go Greek' who were a Greek holidays specialist Tour Operator in 1970 running package holidays to the Greek Islands using charter flights, considered most exotic at the time, as were the aforementioned Olympic Holidays also doing.

Olympic Airways also had own in-house tour operator Allsun Holidays, and flew their own night summer Charter flights in the early 1970's from LHR to CFU, RHO, HER and also to ATH using B707/720B and B727, and shared these flights with some other Tour Operators.
Allsun also used the BEA Trident Scheduled night flights from LHR to CFU, RHO and HER.

Are we any closer to 'Which wing is this 1973?'

Corfu Airport of course,
is infamous for the BCAL BAC 1-11 500 RTO and over run accident into Mouse Island Lagoon the summer before in 1972,
and Cambrian Airways BAC 1-11 skipper Cedric Flood recalls :
Our own BAC 1-11 Corfu incident was probably closest to a disaster experienced by Captain Cedric Flood while taking off from Corfu bound for Liverpool, in the summer of 1971.
An engine failed just as the aircraft was lifting off, and the climb-out performance was greatly affected by the combination of high ambient air temperature, a full flight, and heavy take-off weight.
In fact the aircraft showed such little inclination to climb at all until the undercarriage doors had closed following retraction.
Even then, the rate of climb was minimal, but displaying considerable skill Cedric eased the aircraft around the circuit and successfully landed at a weight considerably in excess of the normal maximum permissible.
rog747 is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 09:36
  #51 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 59
Posts: 11,356
Received 23 Likes on 16 Posts
It's couldn't be a Caravelle? Might anyone have subleased one?

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the window is quite flat at the bottom, might fit quite well with the Caravelle's curved triangles?
treadigraph is online now  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 10:19
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 548
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by treadigraph
It's couldn't be a Caravelle? Might anyone have subleased one?
As pointed out earlier in the thread, the window is quite flat at the bottom, might fit quite well with the Caravelle's curved triangles?
Looks Ish, but AFAIK was any Caravelle charter operator ever subbing for a MAN-CFU flight in 1973?. It would be a long shot.
We only really saw SAM and Aviaco Caravelles on IT charters back then. Sterling and Transavia often popped in to LGW MAN and LTN.

Having looked at a lot of 727 wing tip photos this morning my money is back on the 727.

727 wing

Here is a Dan Air BAC 1-11 500 wing just to throw a spanner in the works !




DA BAC 1-11 500
rog747 is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 10:39
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 548
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Corfu Monarch B720B's
1971 or after

OM flew from both LTN and BHX to Corfu then.


and another OM 720B landing !



rog747 is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 11:36
  #54 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I want a "like" button so bad right now. That's an amazing set of photos and reflections, thanks so much for that rog747.

The neatest solution to this would be that the picture is of a trailing edge of a 727 wing. It seems possible that you could get a shot from one of the rear rows with the tip showing on a 727-47, and avoiding the engine. But against that there is no static dispersion (though maybe not enough resolution in the photo to see that). If it's the leading edge, the aircraft is flying south, and that's difficult to fit with the sequence of the slides. I am going to go back and double check the slide matrix numbers, but as I understand the approach it tended to make landfall from the west over Lake Korrission and then turned left either to land on 35 in a northerly direction directly, or up to the north and turned round for 17 as was certainly the case for this landing.

What would be very informative now would be to find out what the standard approaches to Corfu were.






bisonrav is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 12:43
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 6,282
Received 110 Likes on 65 Posts
Originally Posted by treadigraph
It's couldn't be a Caravelle? Might anyone have subleased one?

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the window is quite flat at the bottom, might fit quite well with the Caravelle's curved triangles?

wing panels don't look right for a Caravelle IMHO
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 12:56
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Please may I also thank Rog747 very much for all the wonderful contributions over the years. We probably queued together for breakfast in Little Eddies onceÖ

I only go back to the early Ď80s but the arrival then was from Brindisi FIR (with no radar) boundary at TIGRA direct to the KRK VOR then teardrop to leave it heading north across the bay for RW35 or circle to RW17, which was always fun in the October storms. Obviously join visually high righthand downwind if ATC, traffic and weather allowed, which this might have been. Brindisi and then Kerkira radars and also the GAR VOR on the airport appeared in the Ď90s I think, then RNAV approaches this century.

Assuming non-stop UK-CFU Iím also starting to favour a 1-11 although the wing panelling and leading edges look different. Any photo experts able to play with the image?

Let the fun continue!
thnarg is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 13:10
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mostly in my own imagination
Posts: 260
Received 35 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by bisonrav
The sequence of these is determined accurately by the matrix numbers on the slide film. These sort of work with my father sitting on the port side and travelling north initially
but you're assuming he stayed in his seat, which is probably true, but you never know, he might have been on a half empty flight and moved from seat to seat - side to side
Sue VÍtements is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 15:37
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North UK
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Definitely looks like a leading edge shot to me - if it was a trailing edge, we'd be looking at the outboard portion of the aileron tapering to a fairly sharpe point, probably with some wicks somewhere.
DH106 is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 17:23
  #59 (permalink)  
TCU
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: On BA58/59
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Boeing 720 wing in flight.....the thick leading edge looks comparable....but why is there no engine/nacelle visible as the 720 cabin is stubby ahead of the wing and it would surely be in shot?

TCU is online now  
Old 29th Jan 2023, 17:44
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: Cherniy Ostrov
Posts: 16
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
It's not a tailplane.

If OP's supposed flight path is accurate, we are looking west as the aircraft flies north. Thus it's the port wingtip we are looking at.

But I don't have any idea which aircraft it is.
IlyaMuromets is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.