RAF strength 1953
Indeed. I notice that on forums like this whenever anyone mentions the F104G Starfighter, someone inevitably comes in with the "widowmaker" comment, but for some reason the Meteor has escaped that reputation. In fact the Meteor statistics were truly dreadful, 890 were lost in service, resulting in the deaths of 450 pilots. Maybe the fact that many of those killed were young single National Service pilots meant that the "widowmaker" name was never applied to the Meteor
There were far less Vampire accidents. Maybe it was the fact it did not have any asymmetric problems, but age caused problems with the Five and Nine Vampires when I was trained on them.
I don’t think many of the pilots were National Service, but they were inexperienced. I am not sure if my experience on the Meteor in early 1958 was common earlier on, but when I was a second pilot on Hastings on detachment at RAF Nicosia, I turned up at the Levant Comm Squadron in March 1958 and said I wanted to fly the Meteor, of which they had about 6 or 7 Mk 8 and T11. I was given two copies of Pilots Notes and told to come back tomorrow. Having spent several hours learning the 8 and 11 pilots notes in the tent I was living in I turned up at the Levant Comm Sqn the next day. After hanging around for several hours the Flt Lt boss of the Comm Flight came into the crew room and said I have authorised you to take a T11, so go and sign the authorisation book and enjoy the flight. I didn’t argue, but went out to the T11 feeling very under confident. All went well until I pressed the first starter button! Nothing happened. One of the ground crew climbed up the side and said. Make sure the throttles are fully closed. Both were slightly open and the engines were started without any more problems. I took off easily and spent a very enjoyable hour over the southern part of the island. After one more trip in the T11 I flew the F8 almost daily for a couple of months. As a self taught Meteor pilot I felt quite proud of myself when we eventually returned to RAF Lyneham. The only thing that annoyed me was the fact that 216 Sqn would not let me fly their 3 Meteor T11 which were provided for their second pilots, so it was back to our 2 Chipmunks and an Anson provided for second pilots on 99 sqn.
Chief Bottle Washer
Some interesting stuff here in the Movietone News film 👍
And a better presentation from British Pathe:
Noyade look at 2:40 for your taildraggers 😇
And a better presentation from British Pathe:
Noyade look at 2:40 for your taildraggers 😇
You guys on here who actually flew at this time have my greatest respect as it seems to have been pretty dangerous time to be a military pilot even without anyone shooting at you.
And i dont mean to offend anyone who liked it but with the old adage about if it looks right it flies right , to my view the Hastings didnt look at all right and I remember from my spotting days seeing them lumbering back and forth along the airways over LHR in the early 60s . I suppose like so many decisions at the time the idea was to 'buy British' to protect our industry and conserve foreign exchange ?
And i dont mean to offend anyone who liked it but with the old adage about if it looks right it flies right , to my view the Hastings didnt look at all right and I remember from my spotting days seeing them lumbering back and forth along the airways over LHR in the early 60s . I suppose like so many decisions at the time the idea was to 'buy British' to protect our industry and conserve foreign exchange ?
You guys on here who actually flew at this time have my greatest respect as it seems to have been pretty dangerous time to be a military pilot even without anyone shooting at you.
And i dont mean to offend anyone who liked it but with the old adage about if it looks right it flies right , to my view the Hastings didnt look at all right and I remember from my spotting days seeing them lumbering back and forth along the airways over LHR in the early 60s . I suppose like so many decisions at the time the idea was to 'buy British' to protect our industry and conserve foreign exchange ?
And i dont mean to offend anyone who liked it but with the old adage about if it looks right it flies right , to my view the Hastings didnt look at all right and I remember from my spotting days seeing them lumbering back and forth along the airways over LHR in the early 60s . I suppose like so many decisions at the time the idea was to 'buy British' to protect our industry and conserve foreign exchange ?
In the first photo, top back row, there is even a Bristol 170-31 Freighter, you can just make out the round nose. At the very back out of sight is a good choice in my opinion.
Indeed. I notice that on forums like this whenever anyone mentions the F104G Starfighter, someone inevitably comes in with the "widowmaker" comment, but for some reason the Meteor has escaped that reputation. In fact the Meteor statistics were truly dreadful, 890 were lost in service, resulting in the deaths of 450 pilots. Maybe the fact that many of those killed were young single National Service pilots meant that the "widowmaker" name was never applied to the Meteor
IIRC, the staggering Meteor loss rate was largely down to the insistence on single-engine training. It finally dawned on the powers-that-be that they were losing more aircraft and pilots/instructors in a month by training for engine failures than there were actual incidences of failure in 5 years.
Those figures are out of thin air because I don't know the actual ones, even if Danny stated them, but the basic principle's correct.
This MAY be wrong; please correct me if it is! I believe the BIG problem with Meteor practice engine failures was that they actually turned the engine OFF to begin with. Great until things went wrong and left you below the curve with NO options (crash straight ahead?) and no bang seat. Yes, the single seaters did have a seat, but it was a Mk1 which needed a lot of airspace BELOW you. As an aside I was an Air Cadet selling programmes at the Review and remember it well. The Air Force I joined in 1957 was already shrinking. Now......corrections?
Last edited by Four Turbo; 23rd Apr 2022 at 11:10. Reason: spelling
I believe Danny42c mentioned this in the "gaining a brevet" thread.
IIRC, the staggering Meteor loss rate was largely down to the insistence on single-engine training. It finally dawned on the powers-that-be that they were losing more aircraft and pilots/instructors in a month by training for engine failures than there were actual incidences of failure in 5 years.
Those figures are out of thin air because I don't know the actual ones, even if Danny stated them, but the basic principle's correct.
IIRC, the staggering Meteor loss rate was largely down to the insistence on single-engine training. It finally dawned on the powers-that-be that they were losing more aircraft and pilots/instructors in a month by training for engine failures than there were actual incidences of failure in 5 years.
Those figures are out of thin air because I don't know the actual ones, even if Danny stated them, but the basic principle's correct.
These show - Meteor 190; Vampire 150 ( if you add in Venom that would be 246.)
Of note is the Sabre which, in its short career with the RAF, suffered 77 losses.
Key Aero records the following for RAF aircraft losses in 1952. From the heading these figures came from somewhere here on PPRuNe;
Lifted from this cracking thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=8 on PPRuNe:
The total RAF losses for 1952 were:
18 Ansons
1 Athena
22 Austers
1 Balliol
1 Beaufighter
9 Brigands
1 Buckmaster
9 Canberras
15 Chipmunks
1 Dakota
1 Dragonfly
1 Halifax
37 Harvards
3 Hastings
10 Hornets
6 Lancasters
6 Lincolns
1 Martinet
150 Meteors
32 Mosquitos
21 Oxfords
9 Prentices
5 Proctors
1 Sabre
2 Shackletons
7 Spitfires
1 Sunderland
1 Sycamore
5 Tempests
20 Tiger Moths
11 Valettas
82 Vampires
2 Varsities
1 Venom
1 Washington
15 Wellingtons
Total 505 aircraft.
Casualties were 315 killed plus 6 killed on the ground.
Sobering isn't it.
The total RAF losses for 1952 were:
18 Ansons
1 Athena
22 Austers
1 Balliol
1 Beaufighter
9 Brigands
1 Buckmaster
9 Canberras
15 Chipmunks
1 Dakota
1 Dragonfly
1 Halifax
37 Harvards
3 Hastings
10 Hornets
6 Lancasters
6 Lincolns
1 Martinet
150 Meteors
32 Mosquitos
21 Oxfords
9 Prentices
5 Proctors
1 Sabre
2 Shackletons
7 Spitfires
1 Sunderland
1 Sycamore
5 Tempests
20 Tiger Moths
11 Valettas
82 Vampires
2 Varsities
1 Venom
1 Washington
15 Wellingtons
Total 505 aircraft.
Casualties were 315 killed plus 6 killed on the ground.
Sobering isn't it.
I think Appalling is the word that comes to mind - 82 Vampires!!! And that's nearly as many dead as we lost in the Falklands
Casualties were 315 killed plus 6 killed on the ground.
Sobering isn't it.
Different era, different perspective. Those statistics were typical of the time. Bearing in mind that Perf A only came in with (the Bev, first) transport aircraft in the late 50s, the inevitable results of the need for 'safety speed' breath retention and 'suck, squeeze. bang, blow' propulsion, they weren't surprising. One of my APCSS/84 Sqdn mates survived no less than 6 'crashes' in a 2 year tour. My own version left a Valetta fuselage converted to a Mess bar at Beihan !
Different times, indeed !
Sobering isn't it.
Different era, different perspective. Those statistics were typical of the time. Bearing in mind that Perf A only came in with (the Bev, first) transport aircraft in the late 50s, the inevitable results of the need for 'safety speed' breath retention and 'suck, squeeze. bang, blow' propulsion, they weren't surprising. One of my APCSS/84 Sqdn mates survived no less than 6 'crashes' in a 2 year tour. My own version left a Valetta fuselage converted to a Mess bar at Beihan !
Different times, indeed !
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Lived near a person who had been a National service pilot. He
flew Sabres from West Raynham and managed to pull sufficient 'G'
to bend one so it never flew again. My father who was based at
West Raynham spent some time driving around Norfolk recovering
bits & pieces of Sabres.
Lived near a person who had been a National service pilot. He
flew Sabres from West Raynham and managed to pull sufficient 'G'
to bend one so it never flew again. My father who was based at
West Raynham spent some time driving around Norfolk recovering
bits & pieces of Sabres.
This MAY be wrong; please correct me if it is! I believe the BIG problem with Meteor practice engine failures was that they actually turned the engine OFF to begin with. Great until things went wrong and left you below the curve with NO options (crash straight ahead?) and no bang seat. Yes, the single seaters did have a seat, but it was a Mk1 which needed a lot of airspace BELOW you. As an aside I was an Air Cadet selling programmes at the Review and remember it well. The Air Force I joined in 1957 was already shrinking. Now......corrections?
First takeoff arm locked as hard as possible to ensure only slow throttle closure. Didn't help as at about 125 knots the HP cock was closed. Hardly flew on two engines from then on. I think the official policy soon became no shutdowns below 5000ft.
Most useful course I ever did.
A Meteor killed Lou soon after I left but nothing to do with astymmetry.
During my detachment at RAF Nicosia in early 1958 one of my good friends also flew the Levant Comm Sqn Meteors. He was a Beverley second pilot who was totally p****d off with his job. Luckily he managed to get off the Beverley and on to Hunters in early 1959. He was eventually posted to a Squadron in Germany and was very happy flying Hunters. Unfortunately he was lost over the North Sea and there was no real evidence about what happened. We just moved on as it was not an unusual occurrence in those days.