Battle of Britain 3 Days To Save The UK

[ATSA1]

Don't forget that the German navy took a pounding during the Norway invasion, and the had little surface ships left...

The Royal Navy, on the other hand, had a substantial fleet in home waters, and would have had little trouble stopping any sort of makeshift German invasion attempt,

The RAF ensured that the Luftwaffe could never achieve sufficient air superiority, to protect all those flat bottomed barges being towed slowly accros the Channel.
.
So as long as Churchill said no to any peace talks, Hitler could say what he liked, but the German navy simply didnt have the capability to launch any kind of invasion..

The romantic idea that "The Few" saved Britain in 1940, is only partly true...

The Royal Navy deserves as much credit..and i say this an an ex member of the RAF!

[Asturias56]

I suspect, given the history of aircraft v surface vessels, that the German's could have managed it without total air superiority - they'd have lost a lot of men but once they got onshore I think it would have been only one result.

[POBJOY]

Fighter production

[QUOTE=Asturias56;11120498]The problem with Chamberlain isn't so much 1938 but 1939-40 when he proved incapable of fighting a war - the Norway Campaign was just the last in a series of really awful actions of his Govt. It was only after he was replaced that fighter production REALLY took off[


Churchill put Beaverbrook in charge of AC production, but the Castle Bromwich issues were not really solved until after June 1940 when Supermarine were involved. The very plant designed to produce 'hundreds' of Spitfires had failed to produce any for the BoB. On the other hand Hawkers were producing enough Hurricanes to replace those lost in France plus our own home defence needs. However after Hitler targeted London the Luftwaffe came closer to 12 Group and got clobbered by fresh squadrons and realised they had not 'destroyed our airforce' as required. The Hurricane numbers gave us a 'force' and were quite up to the job they were designed for, plus were in theatre from the start.

[Asturias56]

The contribution of the Hurricane has always been underplayed IMHO

[Lookleft]

I suspect, given the history of aircraft v surface vessels, that the German's could have managed it without total air superiority - they'd have lost a lot of men but once they got onshore I think it would have been only one result.

The history of aircraft v surface vessels showed that aircraft were very much the winners. I'm thinking of the Prince of wales and the Repulse, Bismarck, Taranto and Pearl Harbour. Also the Wehrmacht was built around Blitzkreig and they had zero experience with amphibious warfare. Although the British army was weakened they were the defenders and would have had the advantage. I think any invasion of England would have been equivalent to the raid on Dieppe. It certainly would not have been anywhere near the planning, equipment and resources that went into D-Day just for the Neptune component.

With the limited resources the Germans had for an amphibious assault air superiority was absolutely required to allow the Germans to support any forces that were able to land on English soil. The RAF and the RN would still have been strong enough to support the army even in its depleted state.

[Asturias56]

" the planning, equipment and resources that went into D-Day just for the Neptune component."

but that was an attack on a fully equipped enemy which had had 4 years to prepare against invasion

In 1940 the British Army had lost almost all its heavy equipment in France and was totally disorganised - and the fixed defences were amateur. The RAF had fighters, which hadn't been adapted to carry bombs, but very little in the way of battlefield support. The Germans had a lot of kit and an airforce designed around battlefield support.

[longer ron]

But the Germans were just not equipped for an amphibious landing - sure they had a few barges to transport infantry across the channel but they had no specialist infantry landing craft or heavy Landing Craft for tanks/trucks/vehicles.Can you imagine how difficult it would have been just to get the Barges onto a beach LOL - and off again to pick up more troops !
It would have been carnage in the Channel - we would have thrown everything against them (Navy and RAF).
I personally think that the Channel Barges were a Bluff to put pressure on Britain to give up the fight,without the support of the USA there is absolutely no way we could have invaded mainland Europe so the German Top Kneddies probably did not consider Britain a threat at that time and happy to leave Britain alone for the time being - perhaps to return to after successfully invading Russia.

[Lookleft]

but that was an attack on a fully equipped enemy which had had 4 years to prepare against invasion

But the logistics of transporting an assault force and then supplying them was essentially the same but on a smaller scale. The Germans had nothing in readiness and were only ever going to be able to cobble together the transport. Yes the Luftwaffe had a lot of kit but they were structured to achieve a breakthrough at the Schwerpunkt on a frontline in a land battle. Their paratroopers were decimated at Crete where the Commonwealth Forces were in a similar situation to the Home Defense of England. If Freyberg had held onto Maleme airfield then Crete would not have fallen. So extrapolate that relatively small battle to an invasion of England without air superiority and command of the sea.

[POBJOY]

Defender of the Empire

Originally Posted by Asturias56

The contribution of the Hurricane has always been underplayed IMHO

It did what It said on the tin
It was delivered when needed
It could cope with austere fields with that wonderful UC
It was a good gun platform
IT performed well in Norway and France before the BoB
We were never short of numbers
Hawkers did us proud

[Asturias56]

"The Germans had nothing in readiness"

Absolutely - I think they were pretty amazed at how fast things went after they pushed the door open.

It would have been a fairly far fetched bit of planning to say "We'll beat the French and evict the Brits in 6 weeks so we'd better have a contingency plan to grab Kent as well.............. "

[rolling20]

IIRC, various theories were put to the test post war about the invasion.
I believe all came up with the same conclusion, it would not have succeeded.

[Lookleft]

They also tested the Big Wing theory after the BoB and find that it would not have worked. Somehow LM made his way up the ladder and was in charge of the Allied airforces for D-Day. Even Eisenhower couldn't put up with him.

[POBJOY]

Big Wings

Originally Posted by Lookleft

They also tested the Big Wing theory after the BoB and find that it would not have worked. Somehow LM made his way up the ladder and was in charge of the Allied airforces for D-Day. Even Eisenhower couldn't put up with him.

They did not work that well after the BoB when we went on the offensive. When you look at the 'numbers' in some of the large operations over France they certainly do not reflect a positive count on results, and the Germans certainly were not ineffective with their tactics. Very easy to 'nibble' a large formation and B.... off than defend yourself against it. Hang on thats what 11 group did before !!!

[DownWest]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

The contribution of the Hurricane has always been underplayed IMHO

Mainly because there are/were many more Spitfires available for films on the subject, so the public perception followed. My father flew Hurricanes in France and the BoB and prefered them for the gun platform and handling, but obviously moved on to Spitfires after. He is on the right in that photo of 32 lounging on the grass in front of a Hurricane.
DW

[Haraka]

The Hurricane was thr more rugged, easier to work on and repair . Important when getting the numbers up the next day............

[Asturias56]

"Mainly because there are/were many more Spitfires available for films on the subject,"

I think it pre-dates that - even during the war "Spitfire" was an iconic name whereas "Hurricane" seems to have been mentioned in passing. And then of course there were the films about Mitchel etc

​​​​​​​My copy of "Britain's Wonderful Air Force" - published in 1942 - states "The Supermarine Spitfire... is almost certainly the world's finest single-seater fighter"

[DownWest]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

"
My copy of "Britain's Wonderful Air Force" - published in 1942 - states "The Supermarine Spitfire... is almost certainly the world's finest single-seater fighter"

Well they would do in 1942....But you are prob right about the feeling at the time. The Spitfire was a leap forward in design and able to be developed continuously, where as the Hurricane was at its limit on older technology? Lot of PR too too, to keep moral up..

[POBJOY]

Spitfire was the 'word'

Despite being short of them at a desperate time; when the 'books' were written most of the authors were flying Spitfires. At the end of the war they could not even find a Hurricane to lead the BoB flypast over London, and then only one to lead the next. The two BoB films (both made at Kenley) struggled to get Hurricanes until Angels One Five borrowed five 11C's from Portugal to go with LF 363 & two MK1's. The later Reach For The Sky managed with 3,and the 1968 BoB 5 (poss 6)

Statics P2617 and L1592 were 1940 veterans and 1592 was operational during the Kenley raid (now in Science Museum)
When Pobjoy was an Air Cadet at Kenley and the RAF still held 'At Home' days in September, Hawkers Hurricane and Vickers Spitfire used to meet up in the Kenley circuit before running in to do their thing at Biggin. There was no danger from the Kenley Gliders, as us cadet winch drivers were occupied standing on the winch roof jumping up and down with glee.!!