Holiday jets again - this time, the Boeing 707 and 720
Avianca:- https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/411727590919516715/ Flew in one.
Standard Airways, Seattle based, operated a pair of ex Qantas 138Bs. One came to a very sticky end at YVR 8/02/68. It was chartered to CP and in their colours when it arrived back at Vancouver from Honolulu and landing in zero vis demolished two buildings four light aircraft and hit a couple of DC8s. Only two dead.
That was the end of Standard and they went bust owing money to everyone at Seatac.
Pacific Western bought the remaining aircraft which was sent to Tulsa for major by AA.
We picked it up from there and had to clear US customs outbound at Seatac. It was still in Standard Airways colours with a very small Canadian registration. No-one wanted to know us and it took some persuading to get a parking finger and ground handling.
PWA operated this and another ex Qantas 138B for a couple of years based at YVR. Gatwick was the main destination and Dusseldorf the next most popular. Usually had to tech stop Keflavik eastbound and Sondestrom westbound.
Winter was mainly Honolulu or Puerto Vallarta out of the prairies. Arriving back into Saskatoon or Calgary in the early hours of the morning the prairie farmers would have a long walk across the ramp in minus 30C in their newly acquired Hawaiian shirts and shorts.
That was the end of Standard and they went bust owing money to everyone at Seatac.
Pacific Western bought the remaining aircraft which was sent to Tulsa for major by AA.
We picked it up from there and had to clear US customs outbound at Seatac. It was still in Standard Airways colours with a very small Canadian registration. No-one wanted to know us and it took some persuading to get a parking finger and ground handling.
PWA operated this and another ex Qantas 138B for a couple of years based at YVR. Gatwick was the main destination and Dusseldorf the next most popular. Usually had to tech stop Keflavik eastbound and Sondestrom westbound.
Winter was mainly Honolulu or Puerto Vallarta out of the prairies. Arriving back into Saskatoon or Calgary in the early hours of the morning the prairie farmers would have a long walk across the ramp in minus 30C in their newly acquired Hawaiian shirts and shorts.
The Fate of Canadian Pacific Airlines' Boeing 707 by Henry Tenby | Henry Tenby - Classic Airline DVDs / Entrepreneur / and more
Quite surprised that the sister aircraft with PWA had to stop between Vancouver and London. These early Qantas 707s were a shortened version for extra range, and when refitted with fan engines produced a pretty capable aircraft. I went into Sondrestrom on Wardair's 727, but never on their 707-320Cs, same engines, larger airframe. Pretty sure Laker used to do Gatwick to LAX with their -138Bs.
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Flew to Cyprus in 1977 on honeymoon in an Airtours B707.
I was current on the B707 at the time and in answer to an earlier query Yes on UK ATPL was rated 707/720.
Same as later I was rated B767/757 though this time I flew both.
Whilst on the B707 I also flew the B737/200
I was current on the B707 at the time and in answer to an earlier query Yes on UK ATPL was rated 707/720.
Same as later I was rated B767/757 though this time I flew both.
Whilst on the B707 I also flew the B737/200
Flew to Cyprus in 1977 on honeymoon in an Airtours B707. I was current on the B707 at the time
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Flew to Cyprus in 1977 on honeymoon in an Airtours B707.
I was current on the B707 at the time and in answer to an earlier query Yes on UK ATPL was rated 707/720.
Same as later I was rated B767/757 though this time I flew both.
Whilst on the B707 I also flew the B737/200
I was current on the B707 at the time and in answer to an earlier query Yes on UK ATPL was rated 707/720.
Same as later I was rated B767/757 though this time I flew both.
Whilst on the B707 I also flew the B737/200
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Re B707/B737 This was overseas so they made their own rules. Not a problem.
Just had to remember to trim down when selecting Flaps 14.
Cannot remember what landing was like!!!
Just had to remember to trim down when selecting Flaps 14.
Cannot remember what landing was like!!!
Description and photos of the accident here :
The Fate of Canadian Pacific Airlines' Boeing 707 by Henry Tenby | Henry Tenby - Classic Airline DVDs / Entrepreneur / and more
Quite surprised that the sister aircraft with PWA had to stop between Vancouver and London. These early Qantas 707s were a shortened version for extra range, and when refitted with fan engines produced a pretty capable aircraft. I went into Sondrestrom on Wardair's 727, but never on their 707-320Cs, same engines, larger airframe. Pretty sure Laker used to do Gatwick to LAX with their -138Bs.
The Fate of Canadian Pacific Airlines' Boeing 707 by Henry Tenby | Henry Tenby - Classic Airline DVDs / Entrepreneur / and more
Quite surprised that the sister aircraft with PWA had to stop between Vancouver and London. These early Qantas 707s were a shortened version for extra range, and when refitted with fan engines produced a pretty capable aircraft. I went into Sondrestrom on Wardair's 727, but never on their 707-320Cs, same engines, larger airframe. Pretty sure Laker used to do Gatwick to LAX with their -138Bs.
707-138B
The 707-138B versus the -320B or C could not do the same missions.
The -320B/C ADV had more powerful engines and a higher fuel capacity (23800 v 17300 US gallons), and of course a 151000 kgs MTOW v 129000 kgs on the smaller 707.
The -138B had the same MTOW as a -120B, but was 10' shorter and thus had a lighter OEW.
Laker and BWIA who flew the -138B to the Caribbean from LGW both stopped usually at the Azores, or Gander/Bangor.
Laker used the smaller 707 to assist the Skytrain start up and could make JFK.
Laker carried 154/158 pax.
Qantas longest -138B sectors were SYD-SIN HNL-NAN SFO-HNL YVR-HNL JFK-SFO LHR-JFK LHR-BDA
From late 1964 saw their new Fiesta Route.
A QF Boeing 707 ‘V-jet’ would took off weekly from Sydney en route to London, via the opposite direction to the original Kangaroo Route.
It would have to stop several times for fuel, and possibly the route planners tried to make it as scenic as possible, with stops including Fiji, Tahiti, Acapulco, Mexico City, The Bahamas and Bermuda. The first service was aboard VH-EBM, the very aircraft that John Travolta would later own ,and the last -138B to be built for QF in 1964.
All up, the flight took 45 hours – 27 of them in the air.
For some reason at PPT was a day long stop arriving at 0835 from NAN, then departed at 2300 to ACA, but not on the way back.
The longest leg was across the Pacific from Tahiti to Acapulco, and the shortest leg was to Acapulco from Mexico’s capital, just an hour’s flight away.
However, this short hop served a very important technical purpose. Mexico City was too high above sea level for the Boeing to take off with full tanks, so the aircraft would fill up in Acapulco for the long flight ahead to Tahiti.
PER-MRU was not a -138B route but a newer -338C was used from 1966.
QF's -138B's had a usual config of 20F and 84Y, or 20F/78Y, or 28F/66Y all with a F lounge.
F had 42'' and Y had at least a 34'' pitch.
(There was until 1965, 20F/72Y)
There was also a 120Y.
The -320B/C ADV had more powerful engines and a higher fuel capacity (23800 v 17300 US gallons), and of course a 151000 kgs MTOW v 129000 kgs on the smaller 707.
The -138B had the same MTOW as a -120B, but was 10' shorter and thus had a lighter OEW.
Laker and BWIA who flew the -138B to the Caribbean from LGW both stopped usually at the Azores, or Gander/Bangor.
Laker used the smaller 707 to assist the Skytrain start up and could make JFK.
Laker carried 154/158 pax.
Qantas longest -138B sectors were SYD-SIN HNL-NAN SFO-HNL YVR-HNL JFK-SFO LHR-JFK LHR-BDA
From late 1964 saw their new Fiesta Route.
A QF Boeing 707 ‘V-jet’ would took off weekly from Sydney en route to London, via the opposite direction to the original Kangaroo Route.
It would have to stop several times for fuel, and possibly the route planners tried to make it as scenic as possible, with stops including Fiji, Tahiti, Acapulco, Mexico City, The Bahamas and Bermuda. The first service was aboard VH-EBM, the very aircraft that John Travolta would later own ,and the last -138B to be built for QF in 1964.
All up, the flight took 45 hours – 27 of them in the air.
For some reason at PPT was a day long stop arriving at 0835 from NAN, then departed at 2300 to ACA, but not on the way back.
The longest leg was across the Pacific from Tahiti to Acapulco, and the shortest leg was to Acapulco from Mexico’s capital, just an hour’s flight away.
However, this short hop served a very important technical purpose. Mexico City was too high above sea level for the Boeing to take off with full tanks, so the aircraft would fill up in Acapulco for the long flight ahead to Tahiti.
PER-MRU was not a -138B route but a newer -338C was used from 1966.
QF's -138B's had a usual config of 20F and 84Y, or 20F/78Y, or 28F/66Y all with a F lounge.
F had 42'' and Y had at least a 34'' pitch.
(There was until 1965, 20F/72Y)
There was also a 120Y.
The Fiesta route through Mexico did not attract the best loads, and was thus often used to place "£10 emigrants" to Australia, for whom Qantas had the contract. For those uncertain of the geography, it must have made Australia seem a very long way away indeed.
Qantas longest -138B sectors were SYD-SIN HNL-NAN SFO-HNL YVR-HNL JFK-SFO LHR-JFK LHR-BDA
From late 1964 saw their new Fiesta Route.
A QF Boeing 707 ‘V-jet’ would took off weekly from Sydney en route to London, via the opposite direction to the original Kangaroo Route.
It would have to stop several times for fuel, and possibly the route planners tried to make it as scenic as possible, with stops including Fiji, Tahiti, Acapulco, Mexico City, The Bahamas and Bermuda. The first service was aboard VH-EBM, the very aircraft that John Travolta would later own ,and the last -138B to be built for QF in 1964.
All up, the flight took 45 hours – 27 of them in the air.
For some reason at PPT was a day long stop arriving at 0835 from NAN, then departed at 2300 to ACA, but not on the way back.
The longest leg was across the Pacific from Tahiti to Acapulco, and the shortest leg was to Acapulco from Mexico’s capital, just an hour’s flight away.
However, this short hop served a very important technical purpose. Mexico City was too high above sea level for the Boeing to take off with full tanks, so the aircraft would fill up in Acapulco for the long flight ahead to Tahiti.
From late 1964 saw their new Fiesta Route.
A QF Boeing 707 ‘V-jet’ would took off weekly from Sydney en route to London, via the opposite direction to the original Kangaroo Route.
It would have to stop several times for fuel, and possibly the route planners tried to make it as scenic as possible, with stops including Fiji, Tahiti, Acapulco, Mexico City, The Bahamas and Bermuda. The first service was aboard VH-EBM, the very aircraft that John Travolta would later own ,and the last -138B to be built for QF in 1964.
All up, the flight took 45 hours – 27 of them in the air.
For some reason at PPT was a day long stop arriving at 0835 from NAN, then departed at 2300 to ACA, but not on the way back.
The longest leg was across the Pacific from Tahiti to Acapulco, and the shortest leg was to Acapulco from Mexico’s capital, just an hour’s flight away.
However, this short hop served a very important technical purpose. Mexico City was too high above sea level for the Boeing to take off with full tanks, so the aircraft would fill up in Acapulco for the long flight ahead to Tahiti.
There was Wake and Midway islands used but they were way North of the Fiesta Route.
From Fuji you then have American Samoa and the Cook islands, and New Caledonia behind you.
Not much else then until HNL...
I saw on Facebook a post about UTA flying their Caravelles on their Pacific feeder routes to Oz, and they did SYD and BNE direct -Noumea. No idea what sort of basic ''ETOPS'' there was in those days.
I thought it was 60 mins...
Well there was no early ETOPS (was it 60 minutes for a twin jet back then? ... I saw on Facebook a post about UTA flying their Caravelles on their Pacific feeder routes to Oz, and they did SYD and BNE direct -Noumea. No idea what sort of basic ''ETOPS'' there was in those days. I thought it was 60 mins...
There were several early twin jet over-ocean operators, of which Sterling Airways of Denmark, with Caravelles, had to be the leader. They ran these regularly on holiday flights transatlantic to San Francisco, or to Natal in northern Brazil, staging through the Canaries, or to Thailand, across the Bay of Bengal.
UTA had just two Caravelles, at opposite ends of the earth. One ran from Paris a few times a week to obscure African points which did not merit a DC8, the other was based between Papeete and Noumea, two onetime French colonies in the South Pacific, and ran between them and to Australia and New Zealand. Likewise Fiji Airways, later badged as Air Pacific, ran a One-Eleven on routes which were wholly over water, to the same set of destinations. The French air force also based a couple of Caravelles at Papeete which ran out to the nuclear testing grounds on oddball French South Pacific islands in the middle of nowhere, and I understand they and UTA sometimes chartered their aircraft back and forth. I don't believe any of these long overwater twin operations ever came to grief
Longest sector I did with Qantas on the 138 was 8.20 SYD-SIN. Longest on a PWA 138 was beginning of season empty ferry LGW-YVR 9.45.
Longest on a BCAL 320C was LGW - LAX 11.40
On the Qantas fiesta route we would position SYD - PPT -SYD on UTA DC8 which had a proper bar at the front of first class.
No diversions on PPT-ACA, it's very empty across there. Qantas had amazingly good navigators (apart from the chief nav who used to pass up heading chits with half degree alterations. This was the man who was twice so far off track into HNL they were intercepted by the USAF ) this was long before inertial or gps and the loran coverage was not good so astro all the way.
ACA departure both ways was at night. It was a very new airport so they hadn't quite sorted out the runway lighting. There was a cable crossing the runway about a third from the end and that would sometimes break as you crossed it making for an interesting final part of the takeoff.
Once did a triple Tahiti-Mexico shuttle. Two weeks in Tahiti was tough!
Tahiti had only three flights a week UTA Qantas and PanAm out of HNL.
rog747 knows more about the details of the Qantas aircraft than I do although I used to fly them! It was a long time ago.I don't remember the first lounge. There was a crew bunk opposite the first class galley.
Never saw UTA Caravelles in SYD. We did SYD- NOU in the 707, only about 2.20 flight time so always somewhere within an hour.
Longest on a BCAL 320C was LGW - LAX 11.40
On the Qantas fiesta route we would position SYD - PPT -SYD on UTA DC8 which had a proper bar at the front of first class.
No diversions on PPT-ACA, it's very empty across there. Qantas had amazingly good navigators (apart from the chief nav who used to pass up heading chits with half degree alterations. This was the man who was twice so far off track into HNL they were intercepted by the USAF ) this was long before inertial or gps and the loran coverage was not good so astro all the way.
ACA departure both ways was at night. It was a very new airport so they hadn't quite sorted out the runway lighting. There was a cable crossing the runway about a third from the end and that would sometimes break as you crossed it making for an interesting final part of the takeoff.
Once did a triple Tahiti-Mexico shuttle. Two weeks in Tahiti was tough!
Tahiti had only three flights a week UTA Qantas and PanAm out of HNL.
rog747 knows more about the details of the Qantas aircraft than I do although I used to fly them! It was a long time ago.I don't remember the first lounge. There was a crew bunk opposite the first class galley.
Never saw UTA Caravelles in SYD. We did SYD- NOU in the 707, only about 2.20 flight time so always somewhere within an hour.
Thank you for the replies. I suppose the long overwater flights are often a planned leap of faith and as said, no-one came to grief! I hadn't realised that UTA used their Caravelle on such long routes, 2 engines to infinity and beyond! Were these 2 examples the ones that went to Air Afrique by chance ? UTA was a decent enough airline, although I only flew the 'shorter' legs to the French Caribbean/Florida from Paris on the DC-10's
Thread Starter
I note the theme about Caravelles operating miles away from their various HQs. I've read that in the 1970s, Britannia Airways 737s could be seen in the Far East and southeast Asia. I don't know if this was before, during or after their pair of 707s was doing the rounds.
Wasn't the rule that sectors longer tha 60 minutes from an alternative airport require more than 2 engines? Hence 4 engined transports. AFAIK the rule still exists, but an exception is accepted for twin jet engines with proven reliabilty of more then so and so hours per engine inop, including essential systems. That exception is certified as ETOPS, and if demonstrated at first delivery of the type as Early-ETOPS.
What is WHBM? There is no google for it.
What is WHBM? There is no google for it.