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Holiday jets again - this time, the Boeing 707 and 720

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Holiday jets again - this time, the Boeing 707 and 720

Old 10th Jun 2021, 11:32
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Here's a couple more.

Late July 1982 Sabena leased OO-SJL (707-329C) to American operator Jet24 , who immediately sublease it to Sunrise Airlines (afaik) a UK operator.
It's ferried to STN and operated a charter to Orlando.
And that was pretty much it with Sunrise AL.

BEA Airtours flew various ex BOAC B707-436, but it's recorded that they also leased (briefly) a B707-131 (OO-TED) from TEA of Belgium in 1978

What about Air Arctic Icelandic? Did they ever operate in their own right, or did they just fly for other airlines?
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Old 10th Jun 2021, 11:46
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Originally Posted by washoutt View Post
What is WHBM? There is no google for it.
I am flattered ...
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Old 10th Jun 2021, 13:14
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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BEA Airtours flew various ex BOAC B707-436, but it's recorded that they also leased (briefly) a B707-131 (OO-TED) from TEA of Belgium in 1978
That's jogged a memory cell. I used to see the TEA 707/720's regularly back in the day. Which UK airport did they fly into, STN ? LGW ?
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Old 10th Jun 2021, 13:19
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
That's jogged a memory cell. I used to see the TEA 707/720's regularly back in the day. Which UK airport did they fly into, STN ? LGW ?
Apart from the Beatours one (of which I was unaware) TEA used to operate mostly adhocs to UK I believe. BHX used to see them on and off operating day trips for visitors to exhibitions at the NEC in the first few years after it opened, and at a time when BHX wasn't exactly well served with scheduled services from much of Europe.

Those NEC charters declined significantly as the likes of Lufthansa, Air France, Sabena and their ilk started operating multi daily services into BHX.
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Old 11th Jun 2021, 13:50
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Originally Posted by Quietplease View Post
Longest sector I did with Qantas on the 138 was 8.20 SYD-SIN. Longest on a PWA 138 was beginning of season empty ferry LGW-YVR 9.45.
Longest on a BCAL 320C was LGW - LAX 11.40
On the Qantas fiesta route we would position SYD - PPT -SYD on UTA DC8 which had a proper bar at the front of first class.
No diversions on PPT-ACA, it's very empty across there. Qantas had amazingly good navigators (apart from the chief nav who used to pass up heading chits with half degree alterations. This was the man who was twice so far off track into HNL they were intercepted by the USAF ) this was long before inertial or gps and the loran coverage was not good so astro all the way.
ACA departure both ways was at night. It was a very new airport so they hadn't quite sorted out the runway lighting. There was a cable crossing the runway about a third from the end and that would sometimes break as you crossed it making for an interesting final part of the takeoff.
Once did a triple Tahiti-Mexico shuttle. Two weeks in Tahiti was tough!
Tahiti had only three flights a week UTA Qantas and PanAm out of HNL.

rog747 knows more about the details of the Qantas aircraft than I do although I used to fly them! It was a long time ago.I don't remember the first lounge. There was a crew bunk opposite the first class galley.

Never saw UTA Caravelles in SYD. We did SYD- NOU in the 707, only about 2.20 flight time so always somewhere within an hour.
Fabulous recollections, thank you very much.
I gather QF ended 707-138B operations in 1968 - two of the fleet only 4 years old,
VH-EBH - EBM all being built as a 138B from new.
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Old 12th Jun 2021, 06:31
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Old 12th Jun 2021, 06:51
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As well as Wardair, have Worldways and Ontario World Air had a mention?
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Old 12th Jun 2021, 08:19
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
As well as Wardair, have Worldways and Ontario World Air had a mention?
Yep - and Quebecair, PWA, and Transair who all did 707 charters to the UK and Europe.

From the States there were early 707 charters to LGW by World AW, Pan and TWA.

Saturn Airways had cancelled their 707C orders, but a 707C would remain on option for AFA until they also switched sides and both airlines ordered the DC-8-63 in late 1968.

Airlift International's own 707C was seen occasionally and Executive Jet Aviation's 707C was immediately leased to Airlift International, then returning to Executive Jet.
The following month it was leased to International Air Bahama for a year, then off to Caledonian AW.
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Old 12th Jun 2021, 11:31
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Originally Posted by Quietplease View Post
Never saw UTA Caravelles in SYD. We did SYD- NOU in the 707, only about 2.20 flight time so always somewhere within an hour.
In 1970 for example it did once a week on Sundays Noumea-Sydney and return. On the Saturday it had done Auckland.

Page 5 here :

ut70.pdf (timetableimages.com)

Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
I hadn't realised that UTA used their Caravelle on such long routes, 2 engines to infinity and beyond! Were these 2 examples the ones that went to Air Afrique by chance ? UTA was a decent enough airline,
Air Afrique bought separately a couple of late-model Caravelles as well, might have even been part of the same order, the two companies were notably intertwined and quite a proportion of the Air Afrique ops and flight deck staff were UTA personnel on secondment, along with loaning of substitute aircraft. Air Afrique heavy maintenance was all done in Paris. There was interlocking minority ownership by UTA (and Air France) in Air Afrique, the same as both had part ownership of French internal airline Air Inter as well. It was very much an "old boys" closed shop, French style, said to be co-ordinated behind the scenes by the longstanding No 1 customer of UTA, the French Foreign Affairs ministry's ex-Colonial department at Quai d'Orsay in Paris.

Last edited by WHBM; 12th Jun 2021 at 11:44.
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Old 12th Jun 2021, 20:19
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I believe this is C-FPWV B707-138B at Gatwick 1978

Gatwick 1979. Foreground Dan-Air's B707-321 G-AYSL operated by British Airtours. Background Air Malta B707-123? G-TJAB.
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Old 12th Jun 2021, 21:22
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G-AYSL. Sierra Lima, or as it was apparently universally known at BA/Airtours, "Spread Legs". An early onetime Pan Am aircraft, Dan-Air got it secondhand in 1971 and ran it themselves, but leased it to BA mainline in 1978 (when they seemed very short of aircraft, and were also using as much spare Airtours capacity on mainline routes as they were able) and to Airtours in 1979. When done at the end of the 1979 season it seems to have languished at Lasham for years, for sale without success, until finally broken up there.

The 707-123B behind it, ex-American Airlines, belonged to Transasian, which despite the name operated from Gatwick, but this was the second summer season it was leased to Air Malta. The following year, 1980, it was with Monarch, but that was its last duty.

The Caravelle in the foreground is, by most amazing coincidence, one of those two UTA Caravelle 10Rs discussed in the post above, which had been sold on in 1972 to Swiss charter operator SATA, later CTA. It did about 15 years with them and was a quite regular Gatwick visitor over the years, particularly on student charters.

May as well do the rest, in the background is a BA One-Eleven, not normally associated with Gatwick, but at the time for a few years they had a couple based there which did a small handful of European destinations in an attempt to stimulate Gatwick scheduled services for BA. Knowing how licensing worked then, it was likely an attempt to prevent B Cal getting such Gatwick routes.
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Old 12th Jun 2021, 22:16
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks WHBM, great information. I was working at Gatwick at the time and took these photos. Funny how what seemed to be routine at the time turns out to br
e great memories for some..
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Old 13th Jun 2021, 05:56
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Air Afrique bought separately a couple of late-model Caravelles as well, might have even been part of the same order, the two companies were notably intertwined and quite a proportion of the Air Afrique ops and flight deck staff were UTA personnel on secondment, along with loaning of substitute aircraft. Air Afrique heavy maintenance was all done in Paris. There was interlocking minority ownership by UTA (and Air France) in Air Afrique, the same as both had part ownership of French internal airline Air Inter as well. It was very much an "old boys" closed shop, French style, said to be co-ordinated behind the scenes by the longstanding No 1 customer of UTA, the French Foreign Affairs ministry's ex-Colonial department at Quai d'Orsay in Paris.
Thanks for that information. Yes, the whole French commercial (airline) aviation industry back then had a very closed circuit feel to it. I flew regularly on just about all the offerings and the cross-pollination of companies was noticeable, all supported with government aid financed by the taxes of the French people (and me at the time). Certainly domestically you could fly to an amazing array of places that today are only available by TGV. As you say, UTA was basically an extension of the French Foreign Affairs ministry. Air France was caught out bugging First Class passengers conversations to gain commercial advantages in the 90's!

G-AYSL. Sierra Lima, or as it was apparently universally known at BA/Airtours, "Spread Legs". An early onetime Pan Am aircraft, Dan-Air got it secondhand in 1971 and ran it themselves, but leased it to BA mainline in 1978 (when they seemed very short of aircraft, and were also using as much spare Airtours capacity on mainline routes as they were able) and to Airtours in 1979. When done at the end of the 1979 season it seems to have languished at Lasham for years, for sale without success, until finally broken up there.
This made me think of the handful of 707/720 aircraft that languished at the Aer Lingus Mx apron in DUB for many years. Does anyone know their story ? I'm assuming that they were scrapped in situ at some point.
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Old 18th Jun 2021, 02:18
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Originally Posted by Mooncrest View Post
Was there a single pilot type-rating covering all variants of the 707 and 720 ? I'd imagine that there would have been a few configurational and handling differences to be learned.
I would guess that there is just one B707 type rating as I got one from flying the KC-135 which was very different from the B707-320 that I flew later.
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Old 18th Jun 2021, 11:33
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On the Holiday Jets wide body discussion WHBM and I had a little discussion about the BOAC/BA tag on trip they used to do with one of the lHR-JFK 747s doing a quick two hour out and back from JFK to Bermuda BDA which was often pretty popular , Bermuda being then and still is a colony BA were presumably the 'national carrier'.

Reflecting on this -I spend 11 years of my life on the island , I remembered that BOAC/ BA also did something similar with VC10s from JFK running down to the Caribbean Islands, Inf act my second ever trip was JFK to Barbados with a stop in Antigua and , as they say, continuing service to Port of Spain. (my first trip was LHR-JFK on the same day)_. Very popular with US tourists as VC10 was lovely to fly on , smooth, nice seats and legroom and nice longhaul BOAC service hence its sort of qualification for this thread .

However while the out and back to Bermuda took only five hours and therefore a BA747 from London arriving JFK early afternoon could easily return to JFK to operate one of the later JFK-LHR overnights the trip down the islands was far far longer. JFK-POS is at least five hours and adding in the time lost with two intermediate stops and minimum one hour on the ground at ANU and BGI that's 16-17 hour round trip . So does any one know how they managed this trip, I flew it bothways , once as described and another time a year later when it was a BGi-JFK direct .

The crew must have slipped somewhere nice -probably BGI so I expect it was a popular bid , Rather like the wonderful Jo burg Mauritius Seychelles Colombo Hong Kong Tokyo VC10 trip which had to be the worlds most exotic flight from a crew perspective. Like many trips back then it didnt operate every day which used to make those old BOAC schedules so interesting like LHR-Tokyo-different day different route
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Old 18th Jun 2021, 14:09
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I would guess that there is just one B707 type rating as I got one from flying the KC-135 which was very different from the B707-320 that I flew later.
When you say different, apart from fuselage size, do you mean handling and performance, or the beautiful hosties in comparison to your previous comrades in the USAF ?
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Old 19th Jun 2021, 09:20
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
However while the out and back to Bermuda took only five hours and therefore a BA747 from London arriving JFK early afternoon could easily return to JFK to operate one of the later JFK-LHR overnights the trip down the islands was far far longer. JFK-POS is at least five hours and adding in the time lost with two intermediate stops and minimum one hour on the ground at ANU and BGI that's 16-17 hour round trip . So does any one know how they managed this trip, I flew it bothways , once as described and another time a year later when it was a BGI-JFK direct .

The crew must have slipped somewhere nice -probably BGI so I expect it was a popular bid , Rather like the wonderful Jo burg Mauritius Seychelles Colombo Hong Kong Tokyo VC10 trip which had to be the worlds most exotic flight from a crew perspective. Like many trips back then it didnt operate every day which used to make those old BOAC schedules so interesting like LHR-Tokyo-different day different route
There's a poster here who used to work in BOAC schedules department and did this working-out.

The BOAC VC-10 from JFK on to the Eastern Caribbean was often the through aircraft from Manchester and Prestwick. The crew slipped at JFK, and departing at 16.30 (in 1971) through Antigua, Barbados, Trinidad and Georgetown in Guyana was some 8 hours overall, arriving after midnight. Although not every day of the week, on the days it did operate there was another flight from London, either direct London to Barbados or stopping at Bermuda, which presumably slipped along the way, arriving at Georgetown early evening, several hours before the JFK flight. Next morning the JFK flight left at 08.00, and the direct London at 12 noon. I presume the two overnighting crews at Georgetown exchanged between the duties.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 16:20
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WHBM

Many thanks, I forgot about the Manchester Prestwick JFK flights , makes perfect sense.
I knew the actual islands stopped at from day to day and as you sai some stopped at BDA as well.
I flew LHR-Barbados on a SVC10 it ledft LHR alte mornign and would have been able to do BGI -JFK evening trip.

I think the crews stayed swapped in Barbados as Trindidad wasnt the best place back then and Georgetown totally scary and cannot imagine BA overnighted there .

I love to look back on those old 1970s BOAC timetables, so incredible complicated and a world (almost 50 years !! ) away from todays almost totally out and back trips . I feel myself lucky to have done a few of them tiring as they were ina way they were a great experience two of my favourites being LHR-Nicosia, Khartoum , Addis Ababa Seychelles SV10 or HKG-Rangoon -Calcutta -Bahrain -Rome-LHR 747-136
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 20:15
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Thinking back to meeting relatives at LHR T3 in the early eighties the arrival boards would show airline/flight number, origin and 'last stop'.
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Old 21st Jun 2021, 06:35
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I used to stand transfixed in front of those clickety-clackety Solari arrival boards watching the flaps do their dance. I wish some creative airport would bring one back as a retro design feature. I don't really care for the present day boards I have to admit.

Having looked at those very same boards in T3 in that time period, I'm ashamed to say I never noticed the 'last stop', no doubt hiding in plain sight
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