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BAC 1-11 Holiday Jets

Old 11th Jun 2021, 11:21
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
Not wanting to divert too much from the 1-11 theme, may I ask what was it like to fly on the Ambassador ? How did it compare to the Viscount and Vanguard and similar Douglas variants ?
I never flew in one, but saw one or two start up at Liverpool. Dan-Air used to run a flight with them from Liverpool to Amsterdam, out morning, back evening, not always daily, so it had often stood for a day or two. Sleeve-valve radial engines, less oil-tight than conventional, which exacerbated the usual radial issue of oil seeping past the piston rings into the lower cylinders as they cooled down. ATC said that when an Ambassador fired up it was LVPs across the airfield for the next 5 minutes, as the oil burned off. Goodness knows what the pax inside thought ! Once idling, the engines had a most old-fashioned put-put sound.
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Old 11th Jun 2021, 13:34
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Ambassador G-ALZZ was wet leased to Skyways Coach Air May-September 1968 - during this period it was based at Gatwick. As far as I can remember this aircraft was withdrawn from service at the termination of the lease. G-info has it PWFU 22 April 1969. Having had many joy rides on Autair's Ambassadors including several European round trips I don't think the experience can be compared to that of travelling in a Turboprop airliner contemporary to that period of the mid-late sixties.
Certainly very comfortable, large windows, pretty quiet, pressurised and perhaps with age a bit creaky. (Particularly in a thunderstorm at night overThe Alps - Wx Radar not fitted). What a privilege to be borne aloft by Bristol Centaurus Engines......
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Old 11th Jun 2021, 14:11
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Noisy I guess, with a couple of whacking great Centaurus radials just outside the cabin windows! I think sleeve-valve engines are relatively quiet by radial standards but not that quiet.

Missed further posts - this was supposed to be in answer to SpringHeeledJack.
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Old 13th Jun 2021, 08:51
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Self flying 1-11

I do remember the BCAL 1-11 doing braking trials at LGW into wind and with only an engineer at the controls. The one pilot had decided to take a seat in the pax cabin.
The aircraft took off and it was only a desperate scramble by the pilot back into the cockpit, which saved the day.
I heard but am not certain of the truth that the a/c ran out of fuel on the landing run.
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Old 13th Jun 2021, 09:20
  #125 (permalink)  
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Never heard that one gcal, sounds rather like the famous Lightning incident at Lyneham...

Once saw a 1-11 go off the side of the runway at Gatwick while landing on 08 - it had hydraulic problems and was flapless and brakeless I think - the crew steered on to the grass as it was getting close to the 26 end and it stopped safely. Memory says probably Laker (keep thinking BIA but must have been before they got theirs).

Can't remember now if they deplaned the pax via steps - quite sure the chutes weren't used! - or towed it on stand . Runway was closed for a while - frustrating for us teenaged spotters!
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Old 13th Jun 2021, 12:52
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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The incident at Gatwick where the aircraft became unintentionally airborne is described in the latest issue of the Aviation Historian journal
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Old 13th Jun 2021, 16:41
  #127 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by gcal View Post
I do remember the BCAL 1-11 doing braking trials at LGW into wind and with only an engineer at the controls. The one pilot had decided to take a seat in the pax cabin.
The aircraft took off and it was only a desperate scramble by the pilot back into the cockpit, which saved the day.
I heard but am not certain of the truth that the a/c ran out of fuel on the landing run.
I was at BCAL the day the 1-11 got airborne by mistake.
My recollections are:- they were cheching the steering after an incident at Jersey. There was a pilot and an engineer at the controls. They taxied all the way to "E" , the western end holding point, and asked to come back along the runway which the tower cleared them to do as long as they got a move on. This they did with a lot of power and at about 100 kts the aircraft rotated by itself and got airborne. There was only a few hundred kilos of fuel onboard and a quick circuit was carried out and the aircraft landed. The rear airstairs and a water drain mast were damaged due scraping the runway either on take off or landing.
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Old 13th Jun 2021, 16:47
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Aah yes,the BCal unplanned departure. The Captain was in the LHS for high-speed taxi trials after a tech defect was fixed with an engineer in the RHS - I can remember him telling me the story once upon a time (through clouds of tobacco smoke, I think), although seem to recall that he's sadly long passed. Lovely chap, and a privilege only realised later in life to have worked with more than a few of his era.

Right: the Dan-Air 1991 Newcastle programme:

737-400
Sat NCL-PMI-NCL DA2124/2125, NCL-LPA-NCL DA2138/2139
Sun NCL-LCA-NCL DA4352/4353
Mon NCL-FAO-NCL DA2146/2147, NCL-LCA-NCL DA2176/2177
Tue NCL-HER-NCL DA4368/4369, NCL-HER-NCL DA4326/4327
Wed NCL-PFO-NCL DA4348/4349
Thu NCL-FAO-STN DA4044/4019, STN-FAO-NCL DA4018/4045
Fri NCL-TFS-NCL DA4208/4209, NCL-LGW pos DA89NL

Thu RHO-NCL DA2117, DA4008/4009 NCL-LCA-NCL, DA4052/4053 NCL-ATH-NCL
Fri NCL-ZTH-NCL DA4300/4301, NCL-TFS-NCL DA2102/2103

727-200
Sat nil listed
Sun NCL-AGP-GLA DA2186/2231, GLA-AGP-NCL DA2230/2187, NCL-IBZ-NCL DA2128/2129
Mon NCL-CFU-NCL DA4358/4359, NCL-CFU-NCL DA4376/4377, NCL-CFU-NCL DA4366/4367 (left at 0030 Tue)
Tue nil listed
Wed NCL-RHO-NCL DA4380/4381
Thu NCL-MAH-GLA DA2158/2247, GLA-MAH-NCL DA2246/2159
Fri NCL-MLA-NCL DA2144/2145, NCL-CFU-NCL DA4042/4043

146-100
Sat NCL-LGW DA101 (which then went LGW-BRN-LGW and out to Berlin on Saturday night)
Sun LGW-NCL DA110 (after TXL-LGW-BRN-LGW-MAN-LGW scheduled services)
Mon-Fri DA812 NCL-MME-AMS-TXL, DA819 TXL-AMS-MME-NCL DA819 at the end of the day

1-11-500
Sat LGW-NCL-LGW DA104/105
Sat JER-NCL-JER DA234/233
Sat JER-NCL-JER DA234/235
Sun DA104 LGW-NCL, DA237 NCL-JER, DA384/384 JER-LBA-JER, DA238 JER-NCL, DA111 NCL-LGW late night
Sun JER-NCL-JER DA232/231
Sun DA108 LGW-NCL late evening (aircraft had flown a Paris before that)
Mon DA101 NCL-LGW, DA102/103 LGW-NCL-LGW, DA106/107 LGW-NCL-LGW, DA108 LGW-NCL
Tue Same except DA106/107 listed as 1-11-200
Wed as per Monday
Thu as per Monday
Fri DA106/107 LGW-NCL-LGW evening listed as 1-11-200. DA108 LGW-NCL evening service then did a late night NCL-LGW as DA109.

At least that's what the book says - a snapshot in time which might not be what actually happened on the day.







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Old 14th Jun 2021, 09:19
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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I flew BAC-111s for BCal. They did not have passenger oxygen and I think because of that they were limited to FL 300.

There were a couple of great things about them. On the top of the wing they had gear down indicators for the main gear so if you did not get a green light for one of the main gear you could go back into the passenger cabin and look out at the wing and see if the indicator was visible.

If you were refueling and had ordered a certain amount of fuel the fuelling would shut off automatically when the target fuel was reached. If you then decided you wanted a bit more fuel you could press the fuel gauge test button. The indicators would wind down to zero and the fuel would start going on again. It was a great way to tweak the fuel if you wanted a bit more.

There was an ice detector which was a cog rotating on the side of the fuselage with a very narrow gap between the cog and a thin bit of metal above it. If any ice built up in the gap it stopped the cog rotating and brought on a warning light in the flight deck. Whoever was doing the walkround would hold the cog to stop it moving and the remaining pilot in the flight deck would give a thumb up when the warning light came on. Simple but efficient and a useful warning for airframe ice in flight.

And who could forget the Whiffletree! A whiffletree was a device used in the 19th Century, most commonly when 2 horses were pulling a plough. If one horse had less strength the whiffletree would automatically compensate so the plough could still go in a straight line, almost like rudder trim. When I did my BAC 111 ground school I learned that all British rear engined airliners like the VC10, Trident and BAC 111 had a system on the hydraulics called a whiffletree and if different hydraulic systems put out different pressures it compensated automatically.

Some accidents were mentioned earlier. There was also the BUA BAC-111 that took off from Milan and lost power in the right engine. A Captain in the jump seat told them to shut down the left engine which they did. With no power they stopped climbing at 250 feet and descended into a field. I would like to think that could not happen these days. https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19690114-0

Last edited by draglift; 14th Jun 2021 at 10:12.
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Old 14th Jun 2021, 20:26
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Court Again

Originally Posted by Peter G-W View Post
Flew with Court Line a few times. Great colour schemes.
Court Again. Place Munich airport, Boxing Day 19umph. Returning from Skiing hols. Airport overflowing with weary travellers. Me, 'wots up?'
Weary fellow passenger,' snow on runways'. Looks out of window. 'Nah, fings is taking off and landing'
weary passengerr. 'not 'ere, England mate nothing can get off' Luton, Birmingham and Manchester are out'.
Turns to wife. 'Bit of a wait love better find somewhere to kip down'.
'Weary traveler, 'hey bud what's that landing now.........?
Damn me its a Court Line BAC 1-11 and what's more its our return flight.

Disgruntled weary traveler, mouth agape. 'I've been here 6 soddin hours already and you walk in and your flight arrives, its not on,,not on at all!
'Should fly Court Line mate....they never let you down.
I worked at the RR Flight Test Establishment at Hucknall and court Line sent 2 BAC 1-11 on crew training to give everyone on site a flight. Can you imaging anything like that happening now!
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Old 15th Jun 2021, 19:24
  #131 (permalink)  
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Some of the later 1-11-500s were Cat II autoland equipped ,(including Court Line), and BCAL managed to get Cat IIIA certification just before the BA take over.
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Old 16th Jun 2021, 20:17
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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I recall a short-notice staff travel style holiday which I arranged through a contact - must have been early to mid 80s - offered a seat that night. Went LGW-ATH on a 1-11 with only a handful of empty seats. Might be wrong but I seem to recall 4:10 take-off to touchdown. Remember thinking that the fuel calculations must have been interesting.
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Old 16th Jun 2021, 20:23
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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The One-Eleven did seem to regularly handle sectors of that duration. The short 300/400 aircraft were fractionally better than the 500. There was a percentage that needed to stop en route, the calculations on likelihood must have been made. LGW to The Canaries is a comparable length, and against the prevailing wind, but some, Laker in particular, ran it for years. Bear in mind that the holiday flights, although full pax, unlike schedules had effectively no cargo.
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Old 16th Jun 2021, 20:49
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting, I wonder how often a tech stop was required. As an aside, I also remember that it seemed a long sector when packed together like sardines.
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Old 16th Jun 2021, 21:13
  #135 (permalink)  
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Channel Airways had 99 seats in a 400srs with 6 abreast seating. That must have been a squash. They also did 7 abreast in the Trident.
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Old 17th Jun 2021, 10:42
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Apologies for the slight drift, but it is about 1-11's. Whilst watching a tv programme last night there was mention of Mohawk motorbikes from yesteryear. This then dislodged a memory of either seeing or flying on a Mohawk Airlines 1-11 in the USA. Also perhaps Ozark Airlines, or were they just DC-9's ?

Did any UK engineers emigrate out to the States to provide their expertise to the operators of the 1-11's. Or was it just, training in the UK at BAC for the US engineers and that was that ? Any of the old hands remember these things perchance ?
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Old 17th Jun 2021, 10:56
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My father was a service rep. on the 1-11. He went on many delivery flights to the US with Braniff, Mohawk and AA aircraft and used to stay for a few days to see the new aircraft into service.
I don't know if training of US staff took place in the UK or US.
There was an occation when Braniff at Houston were having trouble changing engines and taking 2 days when the maintenance manual said 6-8 hours. A BAC team of 4 went to Houston to show them how, and did it in around 3 hours. Personally I've done it in 4-5 hours.
At the handover ceremony of the first Mohawk 1-11 at Hurn, the American boss said something like "I don't know how you can build such a wonderful aircraft in a bunch of old cow sheds".
More trivia if you want it.
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Old 17th Jun 2021, 11:32
  #138 (permalink)  
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Quite sure I saw a couple of US registered airline operated 1-11s at Miami the first time I visited in 1984, though I can't recall who was flying them.
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Old 17th Jun 2021, 12:11
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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My father was a service rep. on the 1-11. He went on many delivery flights to the US with Braniff, Mohawk and AA aircraft and used to stay for a few days to see the new aircraft into service.
I don't know if training of US staff took place in the UK or US.
There was an occation when Braniff at Houston were having trouble changing engines and taking 2 days when the maintenance manual said 6-8 hours. A BAC team of 4 went to Houston to show them how, and did it in around 3 hours. Personally I've done it in 4-5 hours.
At the handover ceremony of the first Mohawk 1-11 at Hurn, the American boss said something like "I don't know how you can build such a wonderful aircraft in a bunch of old cow sheds".
More trivia if you want it.
I do! I'm sure that must a few others who would be interested.
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Old 17th Jun 2021, 12:54
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Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
Quite sure I saw a couple of US registered airline operated 1-11s at Miami the first time I visited in 1984, though I can't recall who was flying them.
Possibly Florida Express?? They operated extensively from Orlando, but I can't recall seeing them at MIA.
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