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BAC 1-11 Holiday Jets

Old 4th Jun 2021, 12:23
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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The 1-11 was either underpowered or too heavy, maybe a little of both. Especially the -500 series. The Rombac I flew on was a real ground gripper but the high temperature and humidity didn't shorten the take-off run!
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 12:40
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Please don't forget US Airways in the states. After the 1972 merger of Allegheny Airlines and Mohawk airlines, Allegheny inherited a fleet of BAC-111's. They were there, in 1986 when I was hired, and were not retired until the early 90's. I can't remember how may there were, probably 20 plus aircraft, but the crews were fiercely loyal to the BAC-asauraus. It was also referred to the BAC-it-Rocket, and SST, (Super Sonic Trash).

The joke was, as the BAC's were replaced by the Fokker 100, that the last Fokker crew would dead-head home on a BAC. It almost worked out that way. The BAC was a great success story, the F-100, not so much.




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Old 4th Jun 2021, 17:22
  #63 (permalink)  
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I think US Air had around 30 1-11 200 srs. All the Mohawk and Braniff ones.
I remember seeing them at Kansas City (KMCI) in 1990.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 20:28
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Yes that's about right. The one in the lower photo was after 1991, when the "hush kits" were required. Of course the BAC crews referred this as the "Warp-Drive" modification. It did reduce the "Sonic" somewhat so that these BAC's, (Bocks), were SsT's. Still Super just a little less noise!.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 20:37
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Originally Posted by dixi188 View Post
Don't remember hitting the air valve on the 1-11. Used to use a 7/16" socket on a tee bar to turn the valve through a panel under the stubwing. Had to wait for the signal that the isolation valve was shut before closing the start valve or the snatch on closing could hurt your wrist. IIRC.
Blimey, that brings back memories. 😁

Walking into the wing fence was another favourite.
Oh and on some models there was a long pointy antenna alongside the fuselage under the wing. ADF?
Of course the cargo door was always a back breaker if you got the technique wrong.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 20:56
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
We were flying exceptionally high , said word from the FD, to ensure a direct trip fuel was an issue. we made it, so did the old dears but even wife and I in mid 20s felt it was a little hard to breathe. What sort of altitude could a 1-11 make.
Not sure of the service ceiling but I imagine that anything above FL330 would be regarded as high for a 1-11.
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Old 4th Jun 2021, 21:43
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Liffy 1M View Post
Not sure of the service ceiling but I imagine that anything above FL330 would be regarded as high for a 1-11.
Something tells me it was FL290, and was brought about principally by a limiting feature of the supplementary oxygen system. We must have those here who know.

When the eclipse over southern UK happened in 1999 several had been chartered, among other types, to chase the shadow. The eclipse was ruined for most on the ground by cloud, which had tops extraordinarily high that day, and the One-Elevens, plus their high-paying guests, were still in it at maximum altitude. Bit embarrassing when other types had been able to break out over the top.

Regarding the USA operators, these might not be thought of as "Holiday Jets" for this thread, but when the initial operators disposed of them they got somewhat concentrated into several secondary airlines based in Florida, and ran a whole range of services down to these. The principal US maintenance company for them became one based at Orlando International, on the opposite side to the terminals, who also did much of the latter-day buy/sell/trade of them.

Last edited by WHBM; 4th Jun 2021 at 21:56.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 07:33
  #68 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Liffy 1M View Post
Not sure of the service ceiling but I imagine that anything above FL330 would be regarded as high for a 1-11.
ISTR that the service ceiling was 35000ft, some VIP 400s were certified with higher cabin diff that allowed then to go higher.
If you were light enough to get to FL350 then the fuel burn was very low allowing a 4+ hour flight duration, but back at about mach .71
The 300/400s were the best performers.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 10:19
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dixi188 View Post
ISTR that the service ceiling was 35000ft, some VIP 400s were certified with higher cabin diff that allowed then to go higher.
If you were light enough to get to FL350 then the fuel burn was very low allowing a 4+ hour flight duration, but back at about mach .71
The 300/400s were the best performers.
I believe that Laker (300 series) developed procedures for Gatwick (or even Manchester) to Las Palmas/Tenerife, that allowed operation on such a 4+ hour sector that other operators found too far
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 11:16
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Dixi, you are correct. Fl350. 7.5 psi pressure diff giving a cabin altitude of 8000
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 12:59
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Originally Posted by staircase View Post
It was such fun when the engine did not start as a result of that bl**dy air valve.

Standing outside with something to hit the valve with, whilst the passengers watched, was always entertaining!
Yep! I well remember the Monarch 1-11s pushing back at Luton, shortly followed by the warbling note that meant all was not well. An Engineer would generally walk out of Airline Engineering with an Aluminium step ladder and open the panel and all would return to normal. I was interested as to what was happening and rang AE to ask. They told me they hit the valve with a rubber headed hammer. But then, me being an ATC wallah, they could have told me anything and Id have believed it

Regarding long ranges flown by 1-11 variants. I flew as pax on a Laker aircraft from Manchester to the old Tunis/Carthage airport (DTTA) which I thought was a pretty good haul for a short variant 1-11. The take-off run was pretty extensive!
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 18:30
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The short One-Elevens seemed to actually have better range that the -500 series. The initial BEA fleet were notably short haulers, I believe from London they couldn't get further than Rome. The later, mostly-IT aircraft were better.

Reference above to the USA fleets, which for the initial production took more than half the output, reminds that the -500 stretched model, like all of the Tridents, was never even offered to the FAA for certification. The only ones you might see in the USA were Caribbean/Latin American operators at Miami.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 19:33
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BCAL occasionally used the -500 on the Gatwick - Tripoli schedule which must have been a bit of a stretch.

Also I recall a Laker -300 in early 70's doing Tenerife North - Glasgow non-stop. I think the jet stream winds must have been very favourable that day.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 19:44
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Did the Laker aircraft have some additional modification for range ? Always seemed a bit strange that when Laker went under B Cal bought their One-Eleven fleet up straight away, while selling their established same size original aircraft at the same time to the USA.
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Old 5th Jun 2021, 21:48
  #75 (permalink)  
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The 300/400 srs had the centre fuel tank that gave them a better range than the 200 that only had wing tanks. The 500srs had the same fuel as the 300/400 but had more airframe to carry around thus less range.
IIRC the wing tanks held 1100 imp gals and the centre tank held 800 imp gals.
P.S. The 300 and 400 series aircraft were the same other than the 400 was certified at a lower max weight for US certification with a two crew cockpit.
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Old 6th Jun 2021, 06:34
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In the USA the 200 series just fitted inside the FAA limit of 80,000 lb MTOW, and was quite successful in its initial sales there. The 300 series was enhanced to be more capable in a number of aspects, but this took it over that limit if certified in the US. The 400 series was thus devised which was mechanically the same in all aspects but just certified to the lower limit, done specifically for the large American Airlines order for 30 of them, who wanted the extra capabilities but could live within the MTOW limit. Shortly after this was done the FAA revised the limit upwards, at the behest of Douglas who were developing the DC9. Thereupon the 400 was also recertified at the higher limit (just a paperwork exercise) and became the standard model number; only the first purchasers of the 300 (Laker and a couple of others) were left as they were.

I believe the initial idea of just a paperwork change to suit the American Airlines order was that of the senior BAC North America salesman, who was a onetime BAC/Vickers test pilot.

The FAA 80,000 lb restriction was not some spite against the One-Eleven (which I have read before), but had been introduced because secondary operators were starting to re-equip the flight decks of secondhand DC-6B aircraft for 2-crew operation. This was a complex, non-automated 4-engined piston aircraft and the FAA did not want 2-crew operation of it. For whatever reason putting an MTOW limit on had been the easiest way to stop it. Once the smaller 2-crew jets came along they devised a different way to do so.
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Old 6th Jun 2021, 09:13
  #77 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dixi188 View Post
ISTR that the service ceiling was 35000ft, some VIP 400s were certified with higher cabin diff that allowed then to go higher.
If you were light enough to get to FL350 then the fuel burn was very low allowing a 4+ hour flight duration, but back at about mach .71
The 300/400s were the best performers.
BIAs 400s were cleared to FL370 and on most flights were capable of getting there early on in the flight. Cabin pressure 8000
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Old 6th Jun 2021, 10:07
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Originally Posted by Musket90 View Post
BCAL occasionally used the -500 on the Gatwick - Tripoli schedule which must have been a bit of a stretch.

Also I recall a Laker -300 in early 70's doing Tenerife North - Glasgow non-stop. I think the jet stream winds must have been very favourable that day.
Only one way then musket 90. Also what pax loads each sector
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Old 6th Jun 2021, 15:12
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'Bloody' 1-11's!

OU LTN-MUC mid '70's on a school ski trip, returning by rail
OU LTN-MUC another mid '70's school ski trip, myself and one teacher returned by BA Trident MUC-LHR after I was taken ill and left behind for a few extra days
BA LGW-ZRH-LHR '77 on a fam-trip shortly after I joined BA telesales at WLAT
Allegheny (AL?) ISP-ALB-BOS just because I could, while staying with friends on Long Island
BA LGW-ZRH-LGW '79 on day trip on an ID90
BR CDG-LGW '81 returning from covering in the QF Paris office

Now, not that I was especially prone to them, on all but the AL and BR flights, I had fairly spectacular nosebleeds.

Last edited by TorC; 6th Jun 2021 at 15:25. Reason: Correction
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Old 6th Jun 2021, 17:53
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Found this in my collection. G-ASJC late 1981 at Gatwick BCAL maintenance area before delivery to Pacific Express.
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