BEA Trident Seating Arrangements circa 1970
We looked very closely at installing rear-facing seats in F27-400s in the '70s, because the safety case was so strong. But we were defeated by the need to lose 2 seats as a result of the extra weight. The accountants were appalled by the notion that 2 seats, out of 44, should be sacrificed to safety. Only the RAF got away with it in those days, and very comfortable those VC10s and Britannias were as a result. My memory fails me on whether trooping contractors such as Eagle also had them.
The weight issue came from the need for the seatback and reclining hinge not to collapse with up to 9G load with an occupant of up to 18-stone/115 Kg (I think it was...). Some of the weight could be removed if the seat were non-reclining, but not all by any means.
The weight issue came from the need for the seatback and reclining hinge not to collapse with up to 9G load with an occupant of up to 18-stone/115 Kg (I think it was...). Some of the weight could be removed if the seat were non-reclining, but not all by any means.
Paxing All Over The World
When I went LHR-HAM in Dec '75, I was invited to choose a reward facing seat if I then filled in a questionnaire. I did and I did, saying it was all fine.
The saftey of rear facing pax seats is well established, as is pax preference not to like thm. Forgetting that many travel backwards on a train.
The saftey of rear facing pax seats is well established, as is pax preference not to like thm. Forgetting that many travel backwards on a train.
I was lucky to fly on reward facing seat as late as 2009 on an ATR-42 aircraft. There was only one aircraft with a row of such a seats and I was lucky to see one of those available. Nice experience. As PAXboy said I am on those trying to seat backwards on a train.
I remember a BA Shuttle, Manchester to London, early 1980s. Pretty sure it was a Trident 3. My client had the forward facing window seat and I had the rearward facing one directly looking at him. Short sector, minimum fuel, and we went up from Manchester it seemed like a rocket, in a decidedly Non-Gripper attitude ! Restrained only by my seat belt, I really thought if that gave way I would fall directly into said client's face. He was a grumpy old git at all times. I started to laugh, had to control myself.
Boeing actually did a serious study in the 1970s (they used to do those then) which looked in detail at this old sore of "only the RAF are concerned about safety". They examined multiple actual accidents and the issues arising.
What they found was that forward-facing was less susceptible to injuries. The key issue was not so much passengers being restrained by the seat back, but that in forward-facing seats you are much more protected from the vast amounts of detritus flying forward. Service carts broken free from their restraints. Cabin bags. Other passengers. Detached cabin fittings. Seat units. Etc. Forward-facing, the seatback protects you from most of this. Rearward-facing, you get it all smash in the face.
Anyone ever keep that report ?
UK trooping contracts did indeed long require rearward-facing seats. In those simpler times this just required two engineers, a box of spanners, and a couple of hours work. Overhead PSUs were placed to suit either direction. Plus the same to put them back afterwards. The aircraft could be quite intensively used and sometimes a delay meant there was not the time to put them back, so the next couple of scheduled sectors had to be done with reversed seats, to the surprise of the passengers. Both British United and British Eagle had accounts of One-Elevens on early morning domestic trunk runs where this happened.
We looked very closely at installing rear-facing seats in F27-400s in the '70s, because the safety case was so strong. But we were defeated by the need to lose 2 seats as a result of the extra weight. The accountants were appalled by the notion that 2 seats, out of 44, should be sacrificed to safety. Only the RAF got away with it in those days, and very comfortable those VC10s and Britannias were as a result. My memory fails me on whether trooping contractors such as Eagle also had them.
What they found was that forward-facing was less susceptible to injuries. The key issue was not so much passengers being restrained by the seat back, but that in forward-facing seats you are much more protected from the vast amounts of detritus flying forward. Service carts broken free from their restraints. Cabin bags. Other passengers. Detached cabin fittings. Seat units. Etc. Forward-facing, the seatback protects you from most of this. Rearward-facing, you get it all smash in the face.
Anyone ever keep that report ?
UK trooping contracts did indeed long require rearward-facing seats. In those simpler times this just required two engineers, a box of spanners, and a couple of hours work. Overhead PSUs were placed to suit either direction. Plus the same to put them back afterwards. The aircraft could be quite intensively used and sometimes a delay meant there was not the time to put them back, so the next couple of scheduled sectors had to be done with reversed seats, to the surprise of the passengers. Both British United and British Eagle had accounts of One-Elevens on early morning domestic trunk runs where this happened.
Last edited by WHBM; 14th Feb 2021 at 23:18.
In those simpler times this just required two engineers, a box of spanners, and a couple of hours work.
That's interesting. I thought I had read that rear-facing seats had to be much stronger than forward-facing ones because they had to cope with the mass of the passenger in a rapid deceleration case.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hughenden, UK
Age: 75
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However there was a severe runway overrun of a trooping Britannia (sorry, cannot remember precise details but I think it was in the Med area and I can remember seeing a photo of the plane nose-down on a steep embankment). Not a single serious injury, whereas if it had had forward facing seats there would have been multiple fractures and facial injuries, We have to remember that (i) the RAF/Army decision was based on an immense amount of wartime experience and that (ii) trooping flights did not have the same level of in-flight amenity. I've often read the airline excuse that 'passenger wouldn't like it' but having flown more than a few thousand miles in trooping Hermes and Britannias during the 50s and 60s, I cannot recall any sensation of 'facing backwards; once your above FL100.
On the original issue of facing seats, I flew BEA Viscount to Jersey in 1964 and that had a number of rows of such seats.
On the original issue of facing seats, I flew BEA Viscount to Jersey in 1964 and that had a number of rows of such seats.
WHBM's point of debris flying in ones face is valid in the case of rareward facing seats. If I rember correctly, the passengers in forward facing seats need to be protected against facial injury by certification rules, requiring the backside top of the seat in front to have a cushion so facial impact in emergency landing conditions may be allieviated. That's the reason why seats must be in an upright postion, so that the cushion on the back is in the right postion relative to the face of the rear passenger.
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,597
Received 275 Likes
on
153 Posts
I had a rearwards facing seat on a Southwest 737 out of El Paso about twenty years ago; felt slightly odd but certainly not uncomfortable during acceleration and climb, and was great for chat between the three of us travelling.
Not when I was flying them, Kenny Carter
N4790P
Did likewise from Gatwick to Plymouth on a BA ATR on a Tuesday evening for an away football match. Got odd looks from the forward facing pax at my attire. Suit, football scarf and a carrier bag with essentials. Flew back in same seat with same crew next morning.
I flew
Rome in 1972 ona trident 2 i think with three friends-all on subload cheapies , how great they were back then . used the facing 'club confiuration; which was nice and as it was a trident not much deck angle on take off and climb. One friend was then a BOAGC 707 co-pilot and as such not a fan of anything BEA and certainly not a fan of tridents with their assorted oddities compared to his very conventional 707. For four people though it really was a very nice way to travel .
I also flew in the front row rear facing seats on an American Eagle ATR San -Juan to Antigua I think me on my own facing two very large Antiguan ladies who were charming and spent most of the time complaining about the Hispanioc AE crews improper American English which in their eyes did not belong in the Eastern Caribbean .
I have a feeling I experiences the reverse seating another time, probably a trident again but wondering if it might have been a CSA IL62 ? which took me LHR to Prague in 1974
Rome in 1972 ona trident 2 i think with three friends-all on subload cheapies , how great they were back then . used the facing 'club confiuration; which was nice and as it was a trident not much deck angle on take off and climb. One friend was then a BOAGC 707 co-pilot and as such not a fan of anything BEA and certainly not a fan of tridents with their assorted oddities compared to his very conventional 707. For four people though it really was a very nice way to travel .
I also flew in the front row rear facing seats on an American Eagle ATR San -Juan to Antigua I think me on my own facing two very large Antiguan ladies who were charming and spent most of the time complaining about the Hispanioc AE crews improper American English which in their eyes did not belong in the Eastern Caribbean .
I have a feeling I experiences the reverse seating another time, probably a trident again but wondering if it might have been a CSA IL62 ? which took me LHR to Prague in 1974
thegypsy; Trident seating arrangements could include the flight-deck, I guess and therefore, yes, we had FE's on the NE Trident 1E. We were absorbed into the BOAC/BEA deal and initially formed into BARD. FE's went to BOAC, left for better things (like you) or retired. Us pure p2's were given marching orders to Heston for SPO training and a bunch of BEA P3's joined us as SPO's. The thought of splitting my hours between the panel & p2 seat plus a few other things made be bail out double quick too. Missed facing the popsies on turnround though.
Flash , as always late on parade .
By the time I got in [1973] ...
T1s were 109Y . 'Tho there's a small doubt that the 109Y [ up from 100Y ] came in with Shuttle , Jan '75.
T2s 104Y or on T/R converted to 92Y and 8F .
T3s , [not on them in '73] , but heard they were 140Y . Later shuttle a/c were 147Y .
From midships galley to emrg. exit , were rear facing seats . Apols if told before ..
There 'n back ATH , T2 , P3 on return into strong headwind . Went for an extended stretch . Front galley V. busy 1 lass doing drinks , another kneeling reaching meal trays out from container , Purser plonking hot inserts on trays . Kneeler then to run them out to economy pax in the rear .
I was obviously in the way if I did nothing , so passed trays up from container .. Promoted to running them out down the back !
Kneeler lass pats me on the back , sends me out with last 2 trays to the very back row .
Walked forward to see cockpit door open and Skipper 'n P2 smiling . Galley crew looking out smiling . Got to rear facing seats , Yes they were all grinning . Odd I thought .. Got to Galley , turned round and yes , all forward facing pax grinning ... Even Odderer they wern't when I'd walked out .
Lass slaps me on the back again , and bursts out laughing ......... Yes the 1st pat was to stick a gash blank menu onto my back with a plaster ..On it in her bright red lipstick was a large '' L '' .
Indeed I was a learner cabin crew that day . Had 2 years of it in the '80s , along with lots of other redeployed 'Nigels' .
rgds condor .
By the time I got in [1973] ...
T1s were 109Y . 'Tho there's a small doubt that the 109Y [ up from 100Y ] came in with Shuttle , Jan '75.
T2s 104Y or on T/R converted to 92Y and 8F .
T3s , [not on them in '73] , but heard they were 140Y . Later shuttle a/c were 147Y .
From midships galley to emrg. exit , were rear facing seats . Apols if told before ..
There 'n back ATH , T2 , P3 on return into strong headwind . Went for an extended stretch . Front galley V. busy 1 lass doing drinks , another kneeling reaching meal trays out from container , Purser plonking hot inserts on trays . Kneeler then to run them out to economy pax in the rear .
I was obviously in the way if I did nothing , so passed trays up from container .. Promoted to running them out down the back !
Kneeler lass pats me on the back , sends me out with last 2 trays to the very back row .
Walked forward to see cockpit door open and Skipper 'n P2 smiling . Galley crew looking out smiling . Got to rear facing seats , Yes they were all grinning . Odd I thought .. Got to Galley , turned round and yes , all forward facing pax grinning ... Even Odderer they wern't when I'd walked out .
Lass slaps me on the back again , and bursts out laughing ......... Yes the 1st pat was to stick a gash blank menu onto my back with a plaster ..On it in her bright red lipstick was a large '' L '' .
Indeed I was a learner cabin crew that day . Had 2 years of it in the '80s , along with lots of other redeployed 'Nigels' .
rgds condor .
