Wikiposts
Search
Aviation History and Nostalgia Whether working in aviation, retired, wannabee or just plain fascinated this forum welcomes all with a love of flight.

World War 1 Plane

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 01:50
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Above the Trenches
Posts: 189
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Just had another idea. The Martinsyde S.1 had a 80hp Gnome and had the same cowl. It also has scalloped trailing edges. Thoughts?
The Baron is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 05:48
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 5,934
Received 393 Likes on 208 Posts
I am an engineer and the word "Plane" used to a flying machine is the most grating word I ever hear
I guess you wouldn't be interested then in knowing what a "plane captain" is then? The navy equivalent of a USAF or US Army "crew chief". Plane has become common usage these days in the business, you'll find it in most dictionaries.

https://www.2ndmaw.marines.mil/News/...-every-flight/
megan is online now  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 09:26
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: La Rochelle.
Age: 48
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 6 Posts
The word plane has so many other meanings.
So has the word 'engineer'

Just had another idea. The Martinsyde S.1 had a 80hp Gnome and had the same cowl.
I was wavering a bit but looking at those intakes (?) behind the propeller, they are quite different on the S1 - smaller, rounder and four rather than two
clareprop is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:24
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Hants
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As an aside, I wonder what sudden piece of lateral thinking made someone think it good idea to bolt the crankshaft to the aeroplane and the propeller to the crankcase.
Fourteenbore is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:47
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mordor
Posts: 1,315
Received 54 Likes on 29 Posts
Originally Posted by clareprop
So has the word 'engineer'
Indeed. As far as I am concerned this title should be legally restricted to those holding either I.Eng or C.Eng registration or Washington/Sydney Accord alternatives (although I would probably accept Eur.Ing and possibly the colonial PE registrations as equivalent).

PDR
PDR1 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 11:05
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mordor
Posts: 1,315
Received 54 Likes on 29 Posts
Originally Posted by Fourteenbore
As an aside, I wonder what sudden piece of lateral thinking made someone think it good idea to bolt the crankshaft to the aeroplane and the propeller to the crankcase.
It was actually quite a good solution to the cooling problem. Rotary engines are self-cooling (that's rather the point) as well as being lighter through not having a flywheel. As specific power outputs increased cooling became a major concern (especially where total-loss splash lubrication was used). Primitive metallurgy and immature understanding of where the heat would accumulate, coupled to VERY primitive understanding of the aerodynamics of cooling ducts, severely limited the maximum power, but a rotary engine addressed most of these problems by putting constant wind over the cylinders. Too see just how far this got I suggest looking up the history of the ABC Dragonfly radial, whose copper-plated cylinder head finds would glow cherry red at high power settings. Liquid-cooled engines worked much better, but were heavier, more complex and had more components to fail.

As the science improved the introduction of better metals, better fin layouts (more focus on the heads where the heat is than the cylinders where it isn't), recirculating oil lubrication with oil coolers and MUCH better understanding of how convection cooling works led to better cowl/duct designs, innovations like the Townend Ring and the NACA Long-Chord cowl, made high power radials more practicable and thus obsoleted the rotary.

The heavy flywheels needed by pre-rotary engines became less necessary as decent cam profiles and ignition curves were developed, together with the general move to higher rpm (for more power). And of course the use of bigger, heavier and geared propellers contributed as well.

PDR
PDR1 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 11:49
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Nottingham UK
Age: 84
Posts: 5,575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sandringham 1 you stated
I am going by the gap between the fuselage and lower wing, the scalloped trailing edge, the just visible 45' strut at the far left of the picture that went from the short lower wing tip to the longer upper wing tip, and the bit of strut that is mostly obscured by the persons right hand/arm, it went out to the forward tip of the landing skid.The cowling is in a style fitted to several aircraft types using rotary engines, the Sopwith Tabloid being one and some Caudrons were build in the UK with Gnomes so a cowl of that style would be an option.
Whilst I agree with your comments regarding the similarity to the Caudron G3's wing, scalloped trailing edge etc i have yet to find a photograph of a RFC or RNAS Caudron G3 where the fuselage is mounted above the lower wing. In the Windsock Datafile No 94 on the Caudron G3 there is a photograph on page 15 of a Danish G3 and the caption states "Denmark's only G3 was unusual in that it is a G3 with the nacelle mounted above the lower wing..." .I have searched J M Bruce book "The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps" and Own Thetford book "British Naval Aircraft since 1912.and all photographs show the lower wing abuts against the bottom of the fuselage nacelle.The only photograph of a fuselage nacelle above the lower wing is that of Caudron No 311 obtained by the War Office in may 1913. J M Bruce states that this aircraft until 1st April when following an adverse report by the Squadron it was condemned.was used by No 4 Squadron The aircraft in the photograph could of course possibly be Caudron No 311. although the photograph published of the aircraft after acceptance by Scarborough has no cowling fitted.
Just a thought could it possibly a RNAS Coudron G.IV,, a twin engined derivative of the G.3, of which i understand they had 55 delivered?

Last edited by MReyn24050; 23rd Aug 2020 at 14:08.
MReyn24050 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 15:58
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Auckland, NZ
Age: 79
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Vat is Jetstream
Aeroplane, Aircraft or the American Airplane that I will accept. Terminlogy is everything!.I am an engineer and the word "Plane" used to a flying machine is the most grating word I ever hear. The word plane has so many other meanings. Woodworking tool, Astrology, etc.
Ah yes, once recently when I had chosen not to travel by railway train, I was vexed to discover that my motorcar would not start. However, I was able to use my cellular telephone to summon a taxicab to the railway station and adopt my previously eschewed mode of transportation. Life is so much more satisfying when one adopts unabbreviated nomenclature, especially when one avoids inappropriate capitalisation (or use of litterae notabiliores if one is not writing in a minuscule script).
FlightlessParrot is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 16:15
  #29 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 77
Posts: 4,141
Received 223 Likes on 65 Posts
"It's an aeroplane, Mr. Bader"
Herod is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 16:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: La Rochelle.
Age: 48
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 6 Posts
summon a taxicab
Sir! If you are referring to a Hackney Carriage, please say so. This hysterical inclination to use modern argot is displeasing in the extreme.
clareprop is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 18:41
  #31 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 81
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by clareprop
Sir! If you are referring to a Hackney Carriage, please say so. This hysterical inclination to use modern argot is displeasing in the extreme.
or Madam. .
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 19:14
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South East of Penge
Age: 74
Posts: 1,792
Received 8 Likes on 8 Posts
There's been more thread drift on this site than in the seat of an old pair of long johns.......(And it was a Caudron G .II BTW)
Haraka is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 22:16
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,816
Received 201 Likes on 93 Posts
Originally Posted by Haraka
And it was a Caudron G .II BTW)
What do you base that conclusion on ?
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 23:37
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Auckland, NZ
Age: 79
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by clareprop
Sir! If you are referring to a Hackney Carriage, please say so. This hysterical inclination to use modern argot is displeasing in the extreme.
Alas, I have spent too long in Her Majesty's overseas dominions. Which reminds me, I must order another case of Angostura Bitters.
FlightlessParrot is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2020, 07:16
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South East of Penge
Age: 74
Posts: 1,792
Received 8 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
What do you base that conclusion on ?
Structurally assessed elimination of other contenders. .
Haraka is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2020, 08:31
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mordor
Posts: 1,315
Received 54 Likes on 29 Posts
"When you have eliminated all the possible whatever remains (no matter how improbable) must be speculative assumption" (Barret Homes, 1878)

Caudrons seemed to have a wide variety of engines - possibly adapting batches to suit whatever engines were available. My wife's great uncle was an RFC pilot - hanging in my study I have a propeller blade with several pictures set into it. One is clearly a Caudron, but this one seems to have a non-rotary engine:



Other pictures on the prop include a vickers gunbus and a Sopwith 1-1/2 strutter.

PDR
PDR1 is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2020, 08:51
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,816
Received 201 Likes on 93 Posts
Originally Posted by Haraka
Structurally assessed elimination of other contenders. .
Ah, right. How many do we have to eliminate before we can make a stab in the dark ?
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2020, 08:54
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mordor
Posts: 1,315
Received 54 Likes on 29 Posts
Can we start with Dominic Cummings?

PDR
PDR1 is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2020, 09:49
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South East of Penge
Age: 74
Posts: 1,792
Received 8 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Ah, right. How many do we have to eliminate before we can make a stab in the dark ?
Well, what other alternative types do you suggest can be reasonably postulated and why?
Note PDR's picture and reasoned comment..
Haraka is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2020, 11:13
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,816
Received 201 Likes on 93 Posts
Originally Posted by Haraka
Well, what other alternative types do you suggest can be reasonably postulated and why?
Note PDR's picture and reasoned comment..
PDR's comment was indeed reasoned

Originally Posted by PDR1
Caudrons seemed to have a wide variety of engines - possibly adapting batches to suit whatever engines were available.
but I don't think it was intended to be exhaustive.
DaveReidUK is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.