Early Boeing 747 Trivia
The first Pan Am '747 to arrive at Heathrow did a demo flight for VIPs and local dignitaries in the afternoon just out to Brecon and back.
I was the radar monitor on the frequency on which it contacted London Control after departure (I supplied information to the radar controller by writing flight details on a perspex board with a TV camera behind it which the radar controller then referred to) and remember his immortal first words when he called up:
'London Clipper XXX; we're not gonna make four thousand (feet) by Woodley'.
(Remember it only had about 200 people on board and was not fully fuelled for a transatlantic flight)
I was the radar monitor on the frequency on which it contacted London Control after departure (I supplied information to the radar controller by writing flight details on a perspex board with a TV camera behind it which the radar controller then referred to) and remember his immortal first words when he called up:
'London Clipper XXX; we're not gonna make four thousand (feet) by Woodley'.
(Remember it only had about 200 people on board and was not fully fuelled for a transatlantic flight)
The dreaded racasan where each toilet or pair of toilets had its own tank...... may have started out blue at the start of the trip but at the end well .... only good thing with it was you could always find where it was leaking from!
BOAC grounding
Norman Tebbit was the Balpa union rep and the fleet were grounded for the first 18 months as he was going for wide bodied pay. The engines were removed and leased out apparently making more money than if the aircraft had been in service. Concrete blocks were suspended from the pylons to avoid wing wsrping.
Working in Traffic at Brisbane Airport it was not unusual for BA 747s to reach the end of the line with patches of fresh paint around the LHS doors. One day one of them rolled up still with the masking tape present. I think this was about this time that BA formed an "Aircraft Appearance Committee" apparently in an attempt to improve the appearance of the fleet although I was tempted to hope that it might facilitate the magical "appearance" of an aeroplane if the inbound aircraft was late.
I often wondered if Boeing regretted not providing a DV window on the flight deck because cleaning the windscreens required the use of a cherry picker. This reminds me of another BA flight that was significantly late arriving at BNE. We had all the return pax in the lounge ready to board as quickly as possible. The crew must have requested that the windscreens be cleaned because the station cherry picker was offered up to the aeroplane in full view of the boarding pax prompting one old dear to remark: "This flight is hours late and now they want to paint the plane!"
I was fortunate enough to be on the last Qantas 747 out of Brisbane on 15th July. Prior to departure I made it known to the tech crew that; "Mr Sutter will be flying with us today." He was with us if only in the form of his signature on my treasured copy of his book. Here is F/O Peter Ferguson with Joe Sutter's book on the flight deck of VH-OEJ:
I often wondered if Boeing regretted not providing a DV window on the flight deck because cleaning the windscreens required the use of a cherry picker. This reminds me of another BA flight that was significantly late arriving at BNE. We had all the return pax in the lounge ready to board as quickly as possible. The crew must have requested that the windscreens be cleaned because the station cherry picker was offered up to the aeroplane in full view of the boarding pax prompting one old dear to remark: "This flight is hours late and now they want to paint the plane!"
I was fortunate enough to be on the last Qantas 747 out of Brisbane on 15th July. Prior to departure I made it known to the tech crew that; "Mr Sutter will be flying with us today." He was with us if only in the form of his signature on my treasured copy of his book. Here is F/O Peter Ferguson with Joe Sutter's book on the flight deck of VH-OEJ:
Thread Starter
Many thanks for all the replies and interest on the old Queen lol.
Re LH NBO accident - yes seems BA had a similar incident to the LE flaps early on before LH, but managed to wing it and live another day.
Re BOAC 747 on holiday charters - They certainly did fly to Majorca and I wish I had kept the 1971 Enterprise Holidays brochure spread showing the LHR-Palma 747 summer charter series.
I know BOAC flew Palma's the following summer too.
The Brochure had come out the winter before (70/71) so it was well planned. My parents had booked us our summer Hols on it in January 71.
Photo here below of BOAC 747 at Palma Sept 1972.
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1278484 photo c. Dietrich Eggert
At that time we saw SAS/Scanair, KLM, Sabena, and Aer Lingus were all regularly using their 747's for Summer and winter IT flights, along with dedicated charter airline Condor to the Mediterranean and the Canary Islands.
Swissair also occasionally flew their 747 for their own partner Balair.
Remember folks back in the day long haul aircraft came back in early morning and sat all day at LHR for an evening flight. So there was slack in the day.
They still do (SAA for one, sit at LHR all day) and until recent years Qantas did some cruise ship charters LHR to IST and BCN with their 747's from LHR during their slack day time.
I got back from IST one Saturday afternoon as a non rev on one...
Also on Sunday afternoons in 1971 BOAC did some pleasure flights for the public from LHR to showcase the new Jumbo age. I never did one but plenty of folk did.
I seem to recall check-in was in the Technical areas, not T3.
BOAC 747-136 Upper deck lounge was called the Monarch Lounge. IIRC no lower deck lounges nor pubs on BOAC - That was for our Yankee friends all off to Honolulu with CO and UA...
BCAL LGW 747 ops -
BCAL had toyed I gather, with the 747SP but went with the DC-10.
They leased 747-148 Paddy Zulu with BA crews, from EI during DC-10 factory delays in 1978/79, PZ operating BCAL's first 747 flight to HOU 31/10/78.
Their first owned 747 was a -230B from LH, 'XN' came in for summer 1982 (I had wrongly recalled BCAL's 747's had all came later on with 2 from Alia and 2 from Wardair, making 5 in the fleet by 1987)
Aerolineas Argentinas had first planned to obtain from Boeing 747's back in the early 1970's and their officials in charge of the purchase of new planes faced choosing the best plane for the company together with the manufacturer’s pressure, especially highlighted by the magnitude of the investment considered.McDonnell-Douglas published a pamphlet in late 1973 entitled Aerolineas Argentinas and the DC-10, which discussed the advantages of this aircraft based on the needs of the company, and carefully showed that the Boeing 747 aircraft was not needed by Aerolineas Argentinas, which would mean higher costs and more time in the return of investment.
A compromised solution seemed to be leasing. In the first half of 1974, an agreement with Pan American to lease a Boeing 747-100 was discussed but was cancelled in June because of some members of the Congress requesting reports about the deal to the President, adding a series of arguments on the performance of the 747-100 compared to the DC-10. That demonstrated an accurate read of the above mentioned pamphlet. Lawmakers finally argued that the commissioning of wide-bodies by the local airline would only serve no objective benefits to the country flag airline. Despite pressure from Boeing, the aircraft was not hired by Aerolineas Argentinas because the company could not reach an agreement with the crew on salaries that would apply to fly a Jumbo. If this transaction would have taken place, it would have been totally new for the airline, because until then the company had always been on owned fleet, and had only rented machines to meet seasonal demands.
However manufacturers did not stop and continued their contacts, and even conducted advertising campaigns in Buenos Aires newspapers. Finally, in August 1974, a new deal with Boeing was closed for leasing one Boeing 747-100 and buying another new one, which would be financed by Eximbank.
This agreement had to be approved by the President, whose signature was expected March 1975, but the Ministry of Economy which was weathering a monumental crisis never approved the operation.
The aircraft was registered in Argentina as LV-LRG,and was available from April 15 at a cost of USD 6,500 per day. Due to the lack of the presidential decree the plane did not leave the factory. Meantime Aerolineas Argentinas, painted the Jumbo in company colours (twice) and ordered audio and video equipment at its own expense. These extra costs were lost because the aircraft was never received.
Originally built for Delta in 1970 as their first 747-132 and registered as N9896, it was returned to Boeing in 1974. It was offered to Aerolíneas Argentinas and painted in the company's old 1970's colours, and given the registration LV-LRG, then it was repainted in the new colours, but due to payment issues was never delivered. The registration was then reassigned to a Fokker F-28 of the same company.
Had it been delivered, it would have been Aerolíneas Argentinas' first 747. It went to China Airlines, then to Pan Am in 1978 as Clipper Mandarin.
photo here of LV-LRG in AR 1970's livery before repaint -
https://forums.x-plane.org/uploads/m...46cf0fcb49.jpg
repainted -
https://www.gacetaeronautica.com/gac...02/jumbo4a.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7...600/LV-LRG.jpg
Aerolíneas Argentinas first true new 747 order was for a 747-287B LV-LZD with -7J engines (all later AR 747-287B orders from 1979 had -7Q engines)
We think it was delivered with just the 3 UD windows, and conversion to 10 was done later, as was done on most early build -200B's, although a few -200B's kept only 3 until their end.
Built in 1975 as a white tail, it was not delivered to AR until late 1976, but was sold back to Boeing in 1982.
Virgin Atlantic in 1984 bought it as their first 747, G-VIRG Maiden Voyager
Re LH NBO accident - yes seems BA had a similar incident to the LE flaps early on before LH, but managed to wing it and live another day.
Re BOAC 747 on holiday charters - They certainly did fly to Majorca and I wish I had kept the 1971 Enterprise Holidays brochure spread showing the LHR-Palma 747 summer charter series.
I know BOAC flew Palma's the following summer too.
The Brochure had come out the winter before (70/71) so it was well planned. My parents had booked us our summer Hols on it in January 71.
Photo here below of BOAC 747 at Palma Sept 1972.
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1278484 photo c. Dietrich Eggert
At that time we saw SAS/Scanair, KLM, Sabena, and Aer Lingus were all regularly using their 747's for Summer and winter IT flights, along with dedicated charter airline Condor to the Mediterranean and the Canary Islands.
Swissair also occasionally flew their 747 for their own partner Balair.
Remember folks back in the day long haul aircraft came back in early morning and sat all day at LHR for an evening flight. So there was slack in the day.
They still do (SAA for one, sit at LHR all day) and until recent years Qantas did some cruise ship charters LHR to IST and BCN with their 747's from LHR during their slack day time.
I got back from IST one Saturday afternoon as a non rev on one...
Also on Sunday afternoons in 1971 BOAC did some pleasure flights for the public from LHR to showcase the new Jumbo age. I never did one but plenty of folk did.
I seem to recall check-in was in the Technical areas, not T3.
BOAC 747-136 Upper deck lounge was called the Monarch Lounge. IIRC no lower deck lounges nor pubs on BOAC - That was for our Yankee friends all off to Honolulu with CO and UA...
BCAL LGW 747 ops -
BCAL had toyed I gather, with the 747SP but went with the DC-10.
They leased 747-148 Paddy Zulu with BA crews, from EI during DC-10 factory delays in 1978/79, PZ operating BCAL's first 747 flight to HOU 31/10/78.
Their first owned 747 was a -230B from LH, 'XN' came in for summer 1982 (I had wrongly recalled BCAL's 747's had all came later on with 2 from Alia and 2 from Wardair, making 5 in the fleet by 1987)
Aerolineas Argentinas had first planned to obtain from Boeing 747's back in the early 1970's and their officials in charge of the purchase of new planes faced choosing the best plane for the company together with the manufacturer’s pressure, especially highlighted by the magnitude of the investment considered.McDonnell-Douglas published a pamphlet in late 1973 entitled Aerolineas Argentinas and the DC-10, which discussed the advantages of this aircraft based on the needs of the company, and carefully showed that the Boeing 747 aircraft was not needed by Aerolineas Argentinas, which would mean higher costs and more time in the return of investment.
A compromised solution seemed to be leasing. In the first half of 1974, an agreement with Pan American to lease a Boeing 747-100 was discussed but was cancelled in June because of some members of the Congress requesting reports about the deal to the President, adding a series of arguments on the performance of the 747-100 compared to the DC-10. That demonstrated an accurate read of the above mentioned pamphlet. Lawmakers finally argued that the commissioning of wide-bodies by the local airline would only serve no objective benefits to the country flag airline. Despite pressure from Boeing, the aircraft was not hired by Aerolineas Argentinas because the company could not reach an agreement with the crew on salaries that would apply to fly a Jumbo. If this transaction would have taken place, it would have been totally new for the airline, because until then the company had always been on owned fleet, and had only rented machines to meet seasonal demands.
However manufacturers did not stop and continued their contacts, and even conducted advertising campaigns in Buenos Aires newspapers. Finally, in August 1974, a new deal with Boeing was closed for leasing one Boeing 747-100 and buying another new one, which would be financed by Eximbank.
This agreement had to be approved by the President, whose signature was expected March 1975, but the Ministry of Economy which was weathering a monumental crisis never approved the operation.
The aircraft was registered in Argentina as LV-LRG,and was available from April 15 at a cost of USD 6,500 per day. Due to the lack of the presidential decree the plane did not leave the factory. Meantime Aerolineas Argentinas, painted the Jumbo in company colours (twice) and ordered audio and video equipment at its own expense. These extra costs were lost because the aircraft was never received.
Originally built for Delta in 1970 as their first 747-132 and registered as N9896, it was returned to Boeing in 1974. It was offered to Aerolíneas Argentinas and painted in the company's old 1970's colours, and given the registration LV-LRG, then it was repainted in the new colours, but due to payment issues was never delivered. The registration was then reassigned to a Fokker F-28 of the same company.
Had it been delivered, it would have been Aerolíneas Argentinas' first 747. It went to China Airlines, then to Pan Am in 1978 as Clipper Mandarin.
photo here of LV-LRG in AR 1970's livery before repaint -
https://forums.x-plane.org/uploads/m...46cf0fcb49.jpg
repainted -
https://www.gacetaeronautica.com/gac...02/jumbo4a.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7...600/LV-LRG.jpg
Aerolíneas Argentinas first true new 747 order was for a 747-287B LV-LZD with -7J engines (all later AR 747-287B orders from 1979 had -7Q engines)
We think it was delivered with just the 3 UD windows, and conversion to 10 was done later, as was done on most early build -200B's, although a few -200B's kept only 3 until their end.
Built in 1975 as a white tail, it was not delivered to AR until late 1976, but was sold back to Boeing in 1982.
Virgin Atlantic in 1984 bought it as their first 747, G-VIRG Maiden Voyager
Last edited by rog747; 20th Jul 2020 at 10:36.
I remember the un veiling of BCAL's first 747, G-BJXN.
When Adam Thompson pulled the curtain to reveal the name "Mungo Park - the famous scottish explorer" we all said "WHO"?
I think they were running out of famous Scots after the DC-10 namings.
It was known as "Mungo Jumbo" for a while.
And the first job I did on it was to change all 16 mainwheels after it had been training in Shannon for a week.
When Adam Thompson pulled the curtain to reveal the name "Mungo Park - the famous scottish explorer" we all said "WHO"?
I think they were running out of famous Scots after the DC-10 namings.
It was known as "Mungo Jumbo" for a while.
And the first job I did on it was to change all 16 mainwheels after it had been training in Shannon for a week.
The first Pan Am '747 to arrive at Heathrow did a demo flight for VIPs and local dignitaries in the afternoon just out to Brecon and back.
I was the radar monitor on the frequency on which it contacted London Control after departure (I supplied information to the radar controller by writing flight details on a perspex board with a TV camera behind it which the radar controller then referred to) and remember his immortal first words when he called up:
'London Clipper XXX; we're not gonna make four thousand (feet) by Woodley'.
(Remember it only had about 200 people on board and was not fully fuelled for a transatlantic flight)
I was the radar monitor on the frequency on which it contacted London Control after departure (I supplied information to the radar controller by writing flight details on a perspex board with a TV camera behind it which the radar controller then referred to) and remember his immortal first words when he called up:
'London Clipper XXX; we're not gonna make four thousand (feet) by Woodley'.
(Remember it only had about 200 people on board and was not fully fuelled for a transatlantic flight)
Bearing in mind that summertime departures were warm early afternoons, when Heathrow would often be on easterlies, and the known reliability of early JT9Ds, there was evident concern in the tower for these, heading out across West London, until it was seen they were clear. Apparently the FE sat with fingers poised over the fuel dump valves, just in case. Pan Am's more extreme cases were known as the "Hedge Clipper", and once the Underground opened out to Heathrow in this time others were "Departing via the Piccadilly Line".
The well-known Continental (actually still in People Express livery) 747 near-thing departing Gatwick showed that there wasn't a lot of margin.
As a BA apprentice at LGW I changed more than my fair share of B747 toilet pumps, these were bolted directly into the tank so they were not a lot of fun to change especially after a long haul flight.
Well they may have been The Queen of the skies
Anyone who has flown both will probably agree with me.
Spot on! Dan
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I remember the Panam and TWA Heathrow-Lax flights in the early 70's, 'Clipper 121' and 'TWA761'. Their rate of climb was such that they hadn't reached cruising level, normally FL280 or 310, by the time they had entered Scottish airspace.
BEA Airtours 707
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Recollect seeing Pan Am 747s climbing out of Heathrow on a Dover departure, as I recall it was Clipper 1 which went eastbound around the world and Clipper 2 did the same westbound.
Another recollection of a TWA 747 trailing eastbound over Woodley into Europe around 1978 and seen from about 20 miles south; bloody great ball of vapour suddenly expanded from the trail, wondered if it was some kind of engine failure.
Another recollection of a TWA 747 trailing eastbound over Woodley into Europe around 1978 and seen from about 20 miles south; bloody great ball of vapour suddenly expanded from the trail, wondered if it was some kind of engine failure.
Remember folks back in the day long haul aircraft came back in early morning and sat all day at LHR for an evening flight. So there was slack in the day.
They still do (SAA for one, sit at LHR all day) and until recent years Qantas did some cruise ship charters LHR to IST and BCN with their 747's from LHR during their slack day time.
I got back from IST one Saturday afternoon as a non rev on one...
I remember watching them on radar at Farnborough struggling to get above 3000ft abeam Fairoaks. Handovers of Farnborough inbounds from the south were often a bit high/late 'because it's stuck on top of a slow climbing Springbok' London Control would say.
I moved to a house just west of Fairoaks in 1995 so I was able to watch them from my back garden too; often saw spurts of fuel venting from the wingtip vents.
Then about 5 years ago (after I retired) it all changed and I saw they were using A340s instead; slightly better rate of climb (but not much).
When I was still an assistant working at LATCC, one of my colleagues thought to ask why the LAX flights never filed LAX as destination, always Seattle. He was told they would file to Seattle with LAX as first diversion, then if they had the fuel after crossing the ocean they would carry on to LAX and miss SEA.
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Also, out of curiosity, with those early model JT9D's that had the 'wet' option for take-off, what reduction in take-off length did that mean? Was it used every time on those international flights since they were so heavy or only under certain conditions? ie.max weight, high OAT etc etc?
flash8,
BEA Airtours 707s were crewed by BEA pilots. I will leave it to blind pew to tell you a thing or two!!
BEA Airtours 707s were crewed by BEA pilots. I will leave it to blind pew to tell you a thing or two!!
Paxing All Over The World
SAA did give up all their 74s quite some time ago, went to 340 and 330. The reason they sit at LHR all day is the problem of the North/South route and only a one or two hour time change. European carriers mostly have no change of time zone and used to go out night and return day but as the Biz traffic increased, Biz did not want to waste a day and tourists neither. Consequently everyone pays for the 12 hours (or so) of parking time. One of the reasons the BA's ex JNB+CPT arrive at LHR so early in the day is to release them for their next rotation.
Thread drift
At JNB during the day, they tow them into a long line for cleaning and servicing: BA (often x2), AF, LH, TK and others at various times. CPT also has BA parked up during the day. I have done daylight returns from both CPT and JNB at various times on BA, VS and old Sabena.
Other North/South routes all around the world have the same problem when down route.
Thread drift
At JNB during the day, they tow them into a long line for cleaning and servicing: BA (often x2), AF, LH, TK and others at various times. CPT also has BA parked up during the day. I have done daylight returns from both CPT and JNB at various times on BA, VS and old Sabena.
Other North/South routes all around the world have the same problem when down route.
Thread Starter
SAA don't use 747s into Heathrow any more do they?
I remember watching them on radar at Farnborough struggling to get above 3000ft abeam Fairoaks. Handovers of Farnborough inbounds from the south were often a bit high/late 'because it's stuck on top of a slow climbing Springbok' London Control would say.
I moved to a house just west of Fairoaks in 1995 so I was able to watch them from my back garden too; often saw spurts of fuel venting from the wingtip vents.
Then about 5 years ago (after I retired) it all changed and I saw they were using A340s instead; slightly better rate of climb (but not much).
I remember watching them on radar at Farnborough struggling to get above 3000ft abeam Fairoaks. Handovers of Farnborough inbounds from the south were often a bit high/late 'because it's stuck on top of a slow climbing Springbok' London Control would say.
I moved to a house just west of Fairoaks in 1995 so I was able to watch them from my back garden too; often saw spurts of fuel venting from the wingtip vents.
Then about 5 years ago (after I retired) it all changed and I saw they were using A340s instead; slightly better rate of climb (but not much).
They had rather nice Rolls Royce powered -400's, but then bought some CF6 powered ones (along with QF ANZ who had also ordered RR at first) for greater range...
One would see at LHR each day before the -400's, a couple of -200 Super B's or a -300, plus an SP sitting there all day until the evening flights to the Cape and JNB...
SAA sold the CPT slot for £m's and the JNB went to just one a day in recent times.
Did CPT in F about 15 or so years ago - awesome flight - did not want to get off!