Aviation History and Nostalgia Whether working in aviation, retired, wannabee or just plain fascinated this forum welcomes all with a love of flight.

Goodbye BA Jumbos

Old 18th Jul 2020, 23:18
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Bergerie1/MH
Well said. Totally agree.
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2020, 10:07
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The earlier 747-136s that BOAC bought had a max takeoff weight of 332.9 tonnes, a figure I still remember well. Incredible to think that the later Boeing 777s have a max takeoff weight of 7 tonnes more than that. When entering cloud at certain temperatures on the early 747s the flight engineer had 12 switches to turn on, 8 ignition and 4 nacelle anti-ice, the flight engineer also had to switch on fuel heaters.
suninmyeyes is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2020, 11:20
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Auckland, NZ
Age: 79
Posts: 718
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bergerie1
I flew the 747 for 14 years, it was a truly remarkable aircraft. It was not just its size, but its remarkably good handling qualities. In contrast to the earlier types I had flown, which all had some handling vices, the 747 had none.
From further back in the aeroplane: in the 1970s I was a fairly frequent, but very nervous, flyer. To dispel my anxiety, I read D.P. Davies' Handling the Big Jets. This wasn't entirely a success, as it was full of knowledgeable critique of the flight characteristics of various widely used aircraft, analysis of the bad situations a pilot could get into, and a disturbingly frequent recurrence of the phrase "There is no point in further analysis of this case."

And then we come to the newly introduced airliner: the clouds part, the sun shines through. I can't remember the exact phrase, but words to the effect of "It is a pleasure to turn to an aeroplane like this." As I recollect, the only warning was to remember how high the cockpit was when going over the threshold.

For someone like me, part of the attraction was the sea of seats. In the centre block, it was easy to ignore the fact that one was in an aluminium tube, at over 30,000 feet, in an environment profoundly hostile to human life. In those days, too, there were often empty seats. And once I bungled my bookings and had to fly across the Tasman first class (on my own money). After the enormous Qantas g+t taxiing out to the threshold, my only reaction to the light turbulence on initial climb was "I hope he doesn't spill the champagne he is pouring into my glass." A like minded fellow traveller and I then climbed the stairs to the lounge, and had more Qantas gins, with, I assume, some tonic. By the time I reached Auckland, I was quite nicely; but on less exalted occasions, I always felt good in the 747, even in economy in the back row with the smokers and other disreputables..

Indeed, the Queen of the Skies.

Last edited by FlightlessParrot; 20th Jul 2020 at 05:48. Reason: Failure of short term memory.
FlightlessParrot is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2020, 19:00
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CYUL
Posts: 100
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rolling20
I don't see that as progress. It may be progress for the bean counters, but not for the flying public.
The progress is the price of airline tickets in constant dollar terms has plummeted meaning more people can fly, more jobs, etc. Obviously not the case today but that was the progress, the democratization of flying.
admiral ackbar is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2020, 20:54
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Auckland, NZ
Age: 79
Posts: 718
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A quick question on "progress": there has obviously been great progress in engines, and in electronics. Has there been great progress in aerodynamics since the 747 was designed?
FlightlessParrot is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2020, 20:59
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes, very interesting post.
With regards to the minimal speed margin for flaps, some B742s had their max weights increased to that of the B743s, 377842Kg. This put the min clean speed at precisely the max F1 speed for the 200 when at max structual. Being a freighter, that was often. To resolve that issue the max F1 speed was increased by 5k and that therefore became the margin. At the time our fleet was mainly 300s with a couple of 200s and then the company purchased 3 200s (while waiting for the 744F to be delivered) to be used as freighters and had the weights increased on those 3 to that of the 300s.
BalusKaptan is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 05:09
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
“Handling the big jets” was the title of the DP Davies book. Every 747 pilot on my course in 1984 had a copy.
Essential reading. I seem to recall statement that said something like “Every 747 Captain should know his take off weight to the nearest 10 tons”(obviously tongue in cheek!)
Everything was enormous - except the cockpit!
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 05:47
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Auckland, NZ
Age: 79
Posts: 718
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Arfur Dent
“Handling the big jets” was the title of the DP Davies book. Every 747 pilot on my course in 1984 had a copy.
Essential reading. I seem to recall statement that said something like “Every 747 Captain should know his take off weight to the nearest 10 tons”(obviously tongue in cheek!)
Everything was enormous - except the cockpit!
You are quite right about the title of the Davies book, and I'm going to correct it, and I had actually looked it up, realised my memory was inaccurate, and then got it wrong when posting.
I also remember Davies remarking that the cockpit was rather cramped, and thinking that strange. Was there a reason, aerodynamic or structural?
FlightlessParrot is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 06:47
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 82
Posts: 1,251
Received 44 Likes on 17 Posts
FlightlessParrot,

I believe it was made as small as possible in order to minimise the local Mach No. in the airflow over the roof. Anyone else know about this?
Bergerie1 is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 09:09
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes on 62 Posts
The flight deck size was most noticeable when I was moved from Tristar to 400 tech training. The Tri was ENORMOUS! ... the 400, cosy! ...the Concorde? more akin to an MG TC!
One passing thought - what will happen to the blue disc on the outside of Cranebank main building - future users will wonder why it's there. (installed to indicate the height of the 747 'fin' top)
Cornish Jack is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 09:10
  #51 (permalink)  
TCU
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: On BA58/59
Posts: 313
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
From my first flight on a BA 747 (-136, G-AWNH, London to Bermuda in June 1978) to my repatriation flight back from Cape Town to London in late May 2020 (G-CIVO), I've enjoyed 37 rides in the BA 747 fleet of various marks, but mostly -436's, with G-BNLG and G-CIVA being my most regular ride; four each. I had more than a stir that the ride on 'Victor Oscar would be my last on this type

Yes, the A380 is miles quieter, the twins save the bean counters thousands, but as a passenger at a far flung airport preparing for a long journey home, the sight of a BA747 at the gate was always reassuring and will be greatly missed.

G-CIVO, CPT, 27-05-20
TCU is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 10:55
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 0
Received 44 Likes on 20 Posts
TCU

Yes, very put about the sense of almost being at home when you saw a BA 74 at the gate . better yet if it was just 'on the ramp' with stairs but that was a rarity. Only got the same sensation in earlier decades when it was a VC10 late at night ,somewhere very hot and humid lit by those yellow sodium ramp lights

PB
pax britanica is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 13:10
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
Age: 63
Posts: 1,237
Received 109 Likes on 65 Posts
Pax Britanica / TCU
Totally agree with you, but not really bothered about it being BA, any Western European carrier was good enough for me coming out of the more obscure African countries (well maybe not AF !).
Cheers
Mr Mac
Mr Mac is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 13:15
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
Age: 63
Posts: 1,237
Received 109 Likes on 65 Posts
Originally Posted by pax britanica
I posted a bit of a eulogy to the wonderful 74 in BA service some weeks ago and got some legit criticism for being premature, sadly I was right . From my first flight , KHR-JFK (Carnasie 13L approach thrown in) on thanksgiving day 1971 to October 2018 I spent many many hours from behind the wing to F and upstairs on Ba and other 74s so I am sad to see it go. It has of course had its time and BA were really something of an anachronism from hanging onto them . The 380 much more comfortable but with its own problems is nice but not a fan of the triple & which seems to me to wallow around a lot and I was not overly impressed with the 787 , too narrow for BAs sardine business class.

If I am honest I liked the Tri-Star best of that era but it didnt last that long and the 74 took me literally to every corner of the world and I will miss seeing and hearing them and LHR wont be quite the same
Pax Britanica
Totally agree with you re 787, I try to avoid them having flown on some of the earlier ones with ANA. I also did quite a bit of flying on Tristars / L1011 with TWA and BA and also sometime with BCAL/JAL DC10, and I also think Tristar was the best of that bunch, but commercially not a success.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Mr Mac is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 13:37
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bergerie1
FlightlessParrot,

I believe it was made as small as possible in order to minimise the local Mach No. in the airflow over the roof. Anyone else know about this?
The flight deck of a 747 is small because unlike most airliners it is not at the very front of the nose section, it is in a bubble quite high up on the fuselage. It was put there as it was originally designed with military or freight options and the nose sections in some 747 freighters hinge upwards. For the passenger not familiar with the 747, at the very front of the first class section where they would expect the flight deck door to be there are two doors which when opened reveal just a cupboard. This has puzzled some passengers who were surprised to learn the flight deck was upstairs.
suninmyeyes is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 15:30
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 82
Posts: 1,251
Received 44 Likes on 17 Posts
suninmyeyes,

Yes, the flight deck is upstairs for the reasons you say. But it was made so tight around the pilots' heads in order to minimise the local Mach No. It could have been larger but for this. It is all to do with controlling the shock wave and minimising flow separation and thus the resulting drag.
Bergerie1 is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 16:26
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 776
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That near sonic airflow around the flightdeck was also the reason that the flightdeck was so noisy on the 747! Hence the abundance of slightly deaf high houred ex Jumbo pilots! (self included!)
Meikleour is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 17:22
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Age: 59
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
747 distinctive engine sound

I have very happy childhood memories of watching them in the early 70s at Heathrow, as one by the airlines added them to their fleets.

One thing which did make it very distinctive (apart from the obvious hump) was that gorgeous low pitch engine drone. Can someone please tell me the engines which made that sound? I've tried looking on YouTube for 747 videos but none of them have that sound. I'd love to hear it again...
Dave_B is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 18:33
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 68
Posts: 4,357
Received 157 Likes on 75 Posts
Suninmyeyes - the story about the 747 being designed as a military freighter (what became the C5A) is largely a myth. While some of the people who worked the Boeing freighter proposal undoubtedly were involved in the 747 design, the 747 design was basically all new. When Boeing was developing the 747, everyone thought supersonic was the future of trans continental passenger aircraft - which would have soon made the 747 obsolete as a passenger aircraft. So the provisions to make it a freighter were designed in early on (the original 747 concept wasn't a super wide 9 or 10 across fuselage, it was a double decker with two single aisle levels).

A quick question on "progress": there has obviously been great progress in engines, and in electronics. Has there been great progress in aerodynamics since the 747 was designed?
Flightless, there have been advances in aerodynamics (particularly in the use of Computational Fluid Dynamics - CFD). But it's been more gradual and evolutionary rather revolutionary. The most significant change in aerodynamics is the ability to optimize the details, and go 'thicker' with things like wings while keeping the critical Mach down. Thicker wings mean more efficient (i.e. lighter) structure and more room for fuel, actuators, etc.
tdracer is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2020, 19:00
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: DarkSideoftheMoon
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smile Seat of the pants dep NBO in the 70's

In the 70's ,after having taken 20 Unaccompanied minors to NBO , the following night the Cpt. allowed me into the jumpseat behind him for the take off..
High airfield, totally full B747 classic ....We started our t/o roll........and we rolled.... and rolled.....( it felt like the M1 motorway at this point ! )
Finally (3mls ? later ! ) after what felt like an eternity,

at the end of the runway , we lumbered up !
Total silence in the cockpit apart from usual commands & procedures.
In the cruise the Cpt. turned to us all and calmly stated "HIP HIP FOR ROLLS ROYCE !!

I mumbled something to the effect of " Thank you chaps , I will just pop back to the cabin now !!"
CompassT4T5 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.