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Adios, Queen of the Sky!

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Adios, Queen of the Sky!

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Old 25th Aug 2020, 07:49
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Hydrogen needs too much volume to be stored. Therefore it's not the future aviation fuel for commercial aviation. However it might still be better/ more promising than today's batteries to store energy onboard.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 07:52
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Originally Posted by Check Airman


It'll be called the 737Pres
Don't forget the President himself grounded the MAX. And 737 itself is revamped 707. Surely Boeing is not going to repeat the experiment and experience.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 10:28
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As I recall it, the straight staircase to the upper deck came with the -300 series coz the upper deck went back so far, beyond doors 2.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 15:53
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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That's how I recall it as well. There were some -200s even with that same straight staircase, after KLM had some rebuilt with the stretched upper deck.


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Old 25th Aug 2020, 20:53
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair
Hydrogen needs too much volume to be stored. Therefore it's not the future aviation fuel for commercial aviation. However it might still be better/ more promising than today's batteries to store energy onboard.
True, but on the other hand...

Jet A = 43 MJ/Kg
Lithium battery = 1 MJ/Kg (43 times the weight of Jet A)
Hydrogen = 130 MJ/Kg (one third the weight of Jet A) assuming LIQUID hydrogen.

Natural hydrogen is lighter than air so the effective weight of and aircraft would be reduced at take-off and would increase as the hydrogen is used...now where did I put that G & T?
The B747 or the A380 are ideal candidates to carry large volumes of hydrogen by using the upper decks and even the large area above the lower deck ceiling...maybe less G and more T next time
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 21:08
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Originally Posted by B744IRE
True, but on the other hand...

Jet A = 43 MJ/Kg
Lithium battery = 1 MJ/Kg (43 times the weight of Jet A)
Hydrogen = 130 MJ/Kg (one third the weight of Jet A) assuming LIQUID hydrogen.

Natural hydrogen is lighter than air so the effective weight of and aircraft would be reduced at take-off and would increase as the hydrogen is used...now where did I put that G & T?
The B747 or the A380 are ideal candidates to carry large volumes of hydrogen by using the upper decks and even the large area above the lower deck ceiling...maybe less G and more T next time
Problem is to be even remotely efficient, the H2 needs to be carried as a liquid, and that means cryogenic (or very, very high pressure). Cryogenic means the containers need to be spherical or cylindrical - you can't just stick fuel tanks in the spare corners.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 21:25
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Originally Posted by tdracer
Problem is to be even remotely efficient, the H2 needs to be carried as a liquid, and that means cryogenic (or very, very high pressure). Cryogenic means the containers need to be spherical or cylindrical - you can't just stick fuel tanks in the spare corners.
Cylindrical tanks on the upper deck and above the main deck ceiling...and maybe in the centre wing tanks?
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 22:02
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B744IRE
Cylindrical tanks on the upper deck and above the main deck ceiling...and maybe in the centre wing tanks?
Center wing tank is a non-starter - the beauty of Jet-A is that it doesn't care if you have big pieces of structure in the middle of the tank - you can't even think of doing that with cryogenics. At best you could put a large number of small tanks stuck between the primary structural elements - but integrating a large number of small tanks is a nightmare (especially when refueling). It's also very expensive.
You need total isolation between H2 tanks and any passengers - a leak would displace so much O2 it would rapidly asphyxiate anyone in the same pressure vessel so you can't have the H2 tanks in the pressurized part of the aircraft. About the only semi-practical method of carrying H2 is to have a dedicated section of the fuselage - but if you don't put it over the wing you start running into CG problems was the fuel is used - so you end up with passengers front and rear, and a big H2 tank in the middle. Hardly ideal.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 07:02
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Sadly, passenger B747s are no longer economical so I am talking about adapting freighters. The C of G problem has already been addressed by systems used by aircraft spraying oil slicks...a simple computer programme to sequence the tanks, starting front and rear and working to the middle. The tanks containing the chemicals are double skinned and vented in case of leaks. A B747 on a 12 hour flight will use 120,000 Kg of Jet A. The same aircraft would use 40,000 Kg of hydrogen so there is an 80,000 Kg saving for the weight of the tanks.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 17:26
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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It all depends on your objective to reach with your H2 driven 747.
If your objective is to enlarge your payload (if tanks could be made lighter than 80 tons then go ahead.

If you want to reduce carbon foot print:
As long as we do not have a global surplus of green produced electricity, we do not have to bother to produce H2 by grey or black produced Electricity.

Electrolysis , cooling, pressurization, and (road) transport to the airfield costs about 5 times the amount of hydro carbons to produce of same amount of electricity for land use.

So unless the H2 would produce trust 5 times more efficient than a hydro carbon (jet) engine your carbon foot print only increases.

Only the argument that could change this is that a jet engine delivers the CO2 directly high in the atmosphere and an electrical power plant low at the ground could extract the CO2 and inject into empty gas fields.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 08:06
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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The last two British Airways 747s left Heathrown this morning.

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Old 8th Oct 2020, 09:52
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy

Sad day. Such a shame to see the back of an iconic BA type leaving LHR for the last time. My last flight on Victor Sierra to BOS in December 2019...I had no clue it would be my last ever.


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Old 8th Oct 2020, 10:40
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Sad day indeed, BA have now retired the 707,737,747,757 and 767
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 11:42
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by trident3A
Sad day indeed, BA have now retired the 707,737,747,757 and 767
Not forgetting the 727 they had on lease from American Trans Air.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 12:11
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Back when I spent several months wandering around TBA I couldn't be bothered to take a photo of a 747, as they were everywhere. Now, all of a sudden, they're gone...
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 12:19
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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It looked wonderful as it took off - a splendid beast!
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 13:15
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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BA pull 747 from service 4 years ahead of time.

According to the BBC today the last 2 flights.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 13:32
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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A sad day indeed for UK enthusiasts and those who flew on them, both SLF and FD. I do wonder why BA were fixed on today, as I'm sure in the big scheme of things it wouldn't have hurt to wait for good weather, so as to be able to do the parallel take-off and a much better optic to catch this moment in aviation history.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 13:40
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Sad to see the jumbo gone it looked good in BA colours, especially some of those retro paint jobs.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 14:03
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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The BBC showed it live during the Breakfast News. Sad to see. Pity they referred (twice) to the "engines cranking up".... Must have had early 747 engines?
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