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BAE / AVRO 146

Old 21st Nov 2022, 21:30
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Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
In 1981 I was dispatched to Hatfield to do a report evaluating the BAe146 for European/North African operations, mainly ACMI, using De Havilland's predicted performance figures.

I made a lot of the claim, as did BAe, that a complete spare engine could be carried in the hold, enabling fast return to service if a change were needed away from base (SEN).

The Chairman read the report, looked at me and in his inimitable fashion said "You stupid prat, why the f**k do you think it's important to carry a spare?" I muttered about lower costs of recovery, blah, blah.

"It's because those f*****g Lycoming engines are designed for helicopters and are f*****g unreliable".

That was the last we heard of the BAe 146.
I wonder why the aforementioned Chairman (who some of us can take a guess at, principally by the language ) thought that a brand-new (as it would have been in 1981), technically unknown anywhere aircraft would do well in the ACMI market, where said Chairman had considerable success, but with long superannuated, known Dart-powered, cheap to buy, easy to stand down for some months, aircraft. Let alone if he knew it was a no-no, why spend the money on the expenses to conduct such a study.

Incidentally, that airline did pick up several used examples in the mid-1990s, by when they were available at a considerably discounted price, plus there was 10 years of engineering experience, and use them for exactly such work.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 07:44
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
I wonder why the aforementioned Chairman (who some of us can take a guess at, principally by the language ) thought that a brand-new (as it would have been in 1981), technically unknown anywhere aircraft would do well in the ACMI market, where said Chairman had considerable success, but with long superannuated, known Dart-powered, cheap to buy, easy to stand down for some months, aircraft. Let alone if he knew it was a no-no, why spend the money on the expenses to conduct such a study.

Incidentally, that airline did pick up several used examples in the mid-1990s, by when they were available at a considerably discounted price, plus there was 10 years of engineering experience, and use them for exactly such work.
BWA only ever had two, probably for a special contract, same as the ATRs.
Keegan wouldn't have had to pay for the survey as Bae would have been falling over themselves to sell him some,same as they were falling over themselves trying to get Jack Walker to take some of the unwanted 146s which were lying around for JEA in the mid 90s (he told me himself)
Also a "technically unknown" aircraft would be the last thing an airline would want to wet lease
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 13:02
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Originally Posted by rog747 View Post
Loved flying on the 146 - Dan Air used it on IT charters at night IBZ and PMI and Manx on Ski flights.
Capital had a couple.
Palmair had a nice example flying from BOH SOU EXT and JER to the Med.
Aegean in the Greek Islands.

Brymon were shown the demo 146 (BAF colours) but went with the Dash 7.

Looking forward to possibly flying one again from Punta Arenas to King George Island to join an Antarctica Grand Circle expedition cruise to go below 66 degrees South - saves throwing up for 3 days in the Drake Passage.
Aerovias DAP have about 6 146's and a few in store.
Loganair had 2 as well - G-OLCA and G-OLCB. MAN based but did IT flights on a weekend - one of which went down to SEN to do a a SEN-AGP. The MAN based one did a double MAN-AGP and I remember an overnight delay on the AGP-MAN sector as we arrived to check in just as the first AGP-MAN was taking off.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 21:48
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Dan-Air had a couple of the early, short ones. Must have been around 1984, when flying Palma to Gatwick, a Dan-Air, one was taxying out at Palma in front of our transfer bus, at a time when they were still a novelty, and commented on. Arriving at Gatwick, there it apparently was on stand. Seemed a pretty low capacity aircraft for such a trunk route. Only much later did I find they were the two separate aircraft, the first was operating a weekend charter to (I think) Teesside, the second was standing between operations from Gatwick on Dan-Air's oddball schedules to Berne etc.

Much later I became a regular on one of this pair, frame number 6, around 1997, which had by then passed to Cityjet and was their first aircraft on London City to Dublin when I was a weekly regular. It had bright orange seats, I don't know if those were the originals. Shortly afterwards it became Bernie Ecclestone's business jet, and turned up at wherever Formula One racing was taking place for many years afterwards, I think based at Biggin Hill.
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 16:26
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I have enjoyed reading all the views of the 146. I was a Captain and then training Captain for 8 years on type. It was a very happy and fun time. I was there during the early days of a new operation into Innsbruck and Chambery. We didn't shave going into those places in those days! When the operation first started we had to go down there for real base training with the CAA. Of course there was also the operation into Bern which was also very interesting.
The 146 certainly had its faults. (I had 4 engine failures in 8 years) but whatever people think it was great fun to operate especially on the routes, as mentioned, for which it was perfect. If you want to read more of my time on the 146 and others, it's in my book. " That's fast enough".
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 18:04
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That's very interesting. I flew the 146 for 19 years and only had ONE engine failure.
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 19:12
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Dan-Air had a couple of the early, short ones.
I flew in one of those Dan Air aircraft Gatwick - Newcastle - Bergen - Stavanger and return in late 1984. I also flew in one on the Gatwick - Berne run but I'm not sure when.
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 19:25
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Grumpy - Quote 'If you want to read more of my time on the 146 and others, it's in my book. " That's fast enough".'

Where can I obtain a copy ?

Cheers Tom.
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 19:27
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Amazon or Waterstones. Just enter the title. Any problems PM me.
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 22:49
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Thanks - I've ordered a copy.
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 06:48
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Grumpy. I remember that you were one of the stars of a book about the 146 circa 1986
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 08:01
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Yes! You can't keep a good man down! I still have my copy!!
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 08:23
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Originally Posted by Grumpyauldgit View Post
Amazon or Waterstones. Just enter the title. Any problems PM me.
I guess it's this one: https://amzn.to/3UaFYSu
Did you have anything to do with VC10s perhaps? That would make it easier for me to smuggle it into the house past my better half...
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 08:39
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
I guess it's this one: https://amzn.to/3UaFYSu
Did you have anything to do with VC10s perhaps? That would make it easier for me to smuggle it into the house past my better half...
Yes, that's the one. No, I didn't have anything to do with VC10s but I knew a man who flew them. I did a lot of stuff from the HS748 to the 747.​​​​​ Regarding the smuggling problem, I use an empty cardboard box and if anything is said just tell the Missus it's Christmas soon and she shouldn't look.
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Old 26th Nov 2022, 07:26
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just tell the Missus it's Christmas soon and she shouldn't look.

I use that tactic year round !!
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Old 26th Nov 2022, 10:14
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Originally Posted by dc9-32 View Post
just tell the Missus it's Christmas soon and she shouldn't look.

I use that tactic year round !!
Much of my library was steadily consigned to the attic, as household size rose from one to two, and then when there's two ... it has a habit of increasing to three, and ...

However, this is, fortunately, the time of year when the aforementioned Christmas decorations have to be extracted from the selfsame attic. Which is a chance to rediscover things, possibly at length.

"Taking a long time up there, you OK ?"
"Just moving some things around here ... um ... er ... making space for the garden furniture over the winter, you know".
"Not reading those old aeroplane books, are you ?"
"Oh NO dear ...".
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 00:32
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"Taking a long time up there, you OK ?"
"Just moving some things around here ... um ... er ... making space for the garden furniture over the winter, you know".
"Not reading those old aeroplane books, are you ?"
"Oh NO dear ...".

Brilliant!!!
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 13:47
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Originally Posted by Grumpyauldgit View Post
Regarding the smuggling problem, I use an empty cardboard box and if anything is said just tell the Missus it's Christmas soon and she shouldn't look.
She's starting to get suspicious.... just carried box no.14 inside. The only Christmas prezzie I could think of is a new tube of toothpaste, do you think she'll notice?
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 14:19
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
She's starting to get suspicious.... just carried box no.14 inside. The only Christmas prezzie I could think of is a new tube of toothpaste, do you think she'll notice?
I doubt it. 14 is a fairly unnoticeable amount at Christmas. Just don't mix up the toothpaste with the haemorrhoid cream.
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