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BAE / AVRO 146

Old 4th Dec 2019, 22:49
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
Where did the 146 come from; internal magazine article. None were realised.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uwc3ptut3k...0from.pdf?dl=0
Would have benefitted from a bit of spell-checking.

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Old 4th Dec 2019, 22:52
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I accumulated around 2500 on the 146 and I have many fond memories of flying her. As as been said already, she is a joy to fly and I recall when I did my type rating course and one of my colleagues who had been flying her for a number of years, said to me that what the 146 lacks in airborne performance, is compensated for by the nice handling characteristics. That was a phrase that I always remembered and thought was very appropriate. Flying it certainly maintained a sharp instrument scan, which stood me in good stead for my next type and was a technique I soon noticed had eroded significantly once flying a modern EFIS machine!

The first stage of flap was 18 degrees, which is rather significant compared to many other commercial aircraft and such a significant deployment of flap in one single motion did result in a noticeable change in attitude and drag. I personally found on departure, that it was often easier to hand fly until the flaps were up, since the rather rudimentary autopilot was at times more a hinderance than a help in managing the speed acceleration during flap retraction.

One thing I fondly remember was being able to outsmart the BAe long range cruise (LRC) published performance figures, as the manufacturer had stipulated a fixed LRC speed, irrespective of decreasing aircraft weight and most computer flight planning systems used this fixed speed for LRC planning calculations. Armed with a copy of the specific range charts from the AFM, along with some accurate thrust management, meant it was possible to fly farther than the computer flight planning system would allow. I recall assuring the ops manager in one company on a couple of empty positioning flights, that we could make it to where we needed to get to but that we would have to ‘divert’ to the intended destination, given that the computer said we could not make it!!

It was a great aircraft for STOL airports and it opened the way for jet operations to airfields that previously had only seen turboprops. It had just as many fans as it had people who loathed it for various reasons!!!!
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 08:44
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
Where did the 146 come from; internal magazine article. None were realised.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uwc3ptut3k...0from.pdf?dl=0
As it says it's British Aircraft Corporation, one can safely say that it has nothing to do with the 146 and its origins which were the province of the Hatfield (former de Havilland) part of Hawker Siddeley Aviation.
Which magazine is it from?
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 13:47
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Alan, re BAC, I recall that we have disagreed about this point before.
Although the source document is headed BAC, it describes a wide ranging work packages shared between Government - DTI, MOD PE, and industry. The breakdown of cost was split between the Ministry, BAC, and HSA.
HSA specific responsibilities concerned marketing, modelling, noise, future projects, simulation, flight test, and ENF acoustics (shrouded propeller, ducted fan?), but there was integrated exchange of ideas amongst all parties.
Within the projects it is possible to identify the separation between those which contributed to Airbus A300 and the 146, although at that time there appears significant military influence with a larger aircraft and STOL.

My first association with this programme was with RAE - terminal area studies, ATC, noise, steep approach, and ground and airborne equipment (significant avionics content). Also, the advanced flight deck, physically at Weybridge but operationally managed by Hatfield with RAE oversight.

The extract was published in the Woodford Design department internal magazine ‘Team 146’; date wise after the demise of Hatfield.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 15:15
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One more from memories. As i really like this beast, i was lucky enough to being that person who send last company RJ away from our base at HEL year 2011. Later on, think two years, i was doing check for that same aircraft when it came back from sub-lease before handed back to BAe.
May sound silly, because these are only machines, but i have good feeling on my head as in addition of that last RJ sent away i was doing last maintenance for couple of SWISS RJ:s when they phased out. Including the last one. There was nice seremony at PIK when aircraft arrived. Think second last aircraft made low fly-by over PIK main runway when they left towards new adventures.
https://www.chevron.org.uk/the-last-bae-146/

Last contact with RJ was at Cranfield 2018, and later on at PIK when one of ex-SWISS stored plane was taken from long term storage and put back in flight condition. Heading to Libya.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 18:29
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
Alan, re BAC, I recall that we have disagreed about this point before.
Although the source document is headed BAC, it describes a wide ranging work packages shared between Government - DTI, MOD PE, and industry. The breakdown of cost was split between the Ministry, BAC, and HSA.
HSA specific responsibilities concerned marketing, modelling, noise, future projects, simulation, flight test, and ENF acoustics (shrouded propeller, ducted fan?), but there was integrated exchange of ideas amongst all parties.
Within the projects it is possible to identify the separation between those which contributed to Airbus A300 and the 146, although at that time there appears significant military influence with a larger aircraft and STOL.

My first association with this programme was with RAE - terminal area studies, ATC, noise, steep approach, and ground and airborne equipment (significant avionics content). Also, the advanced flight deck, physically at Weybridge but operationally managed by Hatfield with RAE oversight.

The extract was published in the Woodford Design department internal magazine ‘Team 146’; date wise after the demise of Hatfield.
Courtesy of FSF:

"Dan Gurney [the author of the extract] served in the British Royal Air Force as a fighter pilot, instructor and experimental test pilot. He is a co-author of several research papers on all-weather landings. Gurney joined BAE Systems in 1980 and was involved in the development and production of the HS125 and BAe 146, and was the project test pilot for the Avro RJ."
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 19:13
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I worked on them for a couple of years. Overall I think it was a good aircraft, Corrosion has pretty much covered most of what they were like to work on, I'd forgotten about the inwards opening C window, you just had to be sure you slid the sun visor out of the way first, don't ask how I remember that one

I used to do a lot of NDT inspections on them, and of course being British they loved to x-ray things (all British aircraft I've worked on always had a lot of x-ray inspections), a couple I remember was the inspection on Wing Rib Zero that required access into the centre tank though the wing leading edge via a slide, easy enough to get into but a real pig to try and push yourself back out again !
Then there was the fuselage frame inspections where you would wallpaper fuselage with film from floor level to floor level, this used almost 100 meters of film that all had to be cut to size beforehand and then processed and viewed afterwards, this from start to finish would take about 4 days !
We never found anything on these inspections.
There were also more inspections on the wing lower skins back in the late 90s due to fuel contamination, I remember blending out some corrosion inside the wing, we kept going till we could see the hangar floor ! I believe several aircraft had complete wing skin replacements because of this. This is why you had to check the water drains every night.

They could be hard work but once you found your way around them they where pretty good to work on.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 05:45
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Courtesy of FSF:

"Dan Gurney [the author of the extract] served in the British Royal Air Force as a fighter pilot, instructor and experimental test pilot. He is a co-author of several research papers on all-weather landings. Gurney joined BAE Systems in 1980 and was involved in the development and production of the HS125 and BAe 146, and was the project test pilot for the Avro RJ."
Slight thread drift but does anyone know what happened to another Hatfield 146 TP Peter Smith?
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 10:44
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Would that be the same Pete Smith who was at Fanborough in the '80s?
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 11:35
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Would that be the same Pete Smith who was at Fanborough in the '80s?
That I'm not sure about. Peter was very involved with the development of both the Hatfield and PSA simulators in the mid 80s.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 12:44
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Originally Posted by ZFT View Post
Slight thread drift but does anyone know what happened to another Hatfield 146 TP Peter Smith?
Peter was imparting great breadth and depth of knowledge to airlines operating the BAe146 certainly up to 2011, particularly the yearly tech refresher classroom days. It was always a pleasure to learn from such a knowledgeable yet unassuming master of the 146. A true gentleman.

Edited to add: another quirk of the 146 was in the avionics bay, looking up at the electromagnetic indicators (dolls eyes colloquially) after each flight to see what had over-temped or cut out during that flight.... They were back to front, all the left ones on the right and vice versa. I asked Peter if there was a good reason for that, as it appeared confusing. His answer: when the printed circuit board was laid up, the technician forgot that the writing and all component placement on the underside of the board needed to be 'reflected' to appear backwards on laying up, for it to appear correctly in the finished PCB. By the time it was discovered, it was deemed to expensive to re-order all the PCBs. Which is why all the indictors were ar$£ about face!

Last edited by pilotmike; 6th Dec 2019 at 12:55.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 14:26
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Loved the 146, flew it as FO and Captain. Had to shut down an engine once due to vibration (off top of the scale). By the time I disembarked the engineers had removed the hot end from the offending engine to show turbine blade missing. Also only transport aircraft I have stalled (intentionally) as far as stick pusher.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 15:34
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4 engines tho'... not that attractive to small airlines TBH
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 15:51
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A sad mistake. Had DeHaviland/BAe been able to source suitable engines to have made it a twin it could have been a world beater. As it was it comfortably outsold any other UK airliner - ever.
The Russians managed it...they even had the bloody cheek to call it the An 148! No pretence spared there, then!
What's the betting the dolls-eye indicators on that are arsey-versey too?
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 17:20
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I've always wondered about the An-148. It really is extremely similar to the 146.
Did they get formal permission to modify the original, or is it an original it's own right?
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 18:07
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
I've always wondered about the An-148. It really is extremely similar to the 146.
Did they get formal permission to modify the original, or is it an original it's own right?
It's clearly not a copy in the sense that some Chinese designs are reverse-engineered Russian types. Heck, they didn't even get the number of engines right.

Joking aside, there isn't an infinite number of viable airliner configurations. How many low-wing twin designs with underwing engines can you think of ?
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 18:45
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I thought the 146 TP was Peter Sedgwick - ex 48 Sqn Hercules co-pilot and skipper. IIRC at one time Hatfield had 3 ex48 pilots of my vintage (67-69 ) on the payroll. Peter, Mike Preston ( RIP ) and Neil Smith.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 19:25
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In 1981, when the 146 first flew, the CTP at Hatfield was Mike Goodfellow, and the deputy CTP was Peter Sedgwick.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 20:35
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I was dispatched from Southend one day in late 1980/early 1981, I guess, to go to Hatfield, do a bit of digging, and come back with a report on the BAe 146's suitability for BAF as a replacement for the Heralds on ACMI work, a role eventually filled by the ex-BA Viscounts. He reckoned that sales prospects were so poor that he could acquire the aircraft on a lease for peanuts, but he was dubious about the claims being made for it. It had not yet made its first flight.

I gave the report to Mike K a week later. I had summarised its operating data and costs, and the commercial aspects, summarised the maintenance prgramme requirements and so on and so forth. I made much of the design feature that allowed a spare engine to be carried (without the nacelle, IIRC) in the forward hold, and the advantage this would bring.

MK glanced through the report without comment until he got to the bit about the spare engine.

"You stupid f****r," he said, with the gracious courtesy that was typical of him, "why do you think they need to put a spare on board? It's because they know f****g well that those f*****g Lycomings are designed for helicopters and are s**t, but they are the only ones they can use on that aircraft. It's called Whisperjet because they'll usually be stopped".

As usual he was way ahead of me.

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Old 7th Dec 2019, 03:04
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I would say I have one good memory about the 146 : the speed brake!
smell terrible, underpowered, slow,heavy controls, over complicated systems, never ending checklist on the 1st flight...
Why to make it simple if you can make it complicated?
5 years and 3000hrs
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