Shorts Stirling, Wingspan, Hangar Doors?
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This was the reason cited by Murray Peden from 214 Sqdn who at least believed that to be true in his book "A Thousand Shall Fall" so at least that story was circulating during the war amongst crew - probably as they flew misions 8,000 feet below the Lancs. However, there are some interesting write-ups from PFF crew citations of the maneuverability of the Stirling in fending off German night-fighters.
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Looking t that diagram it certainly illustrates how much extra weight the Sterling had to carry a round to deliver fewer bombs -a large part of it in the wheels alone which look enormous and of course it does look extremely ungainly on the ground and must have been a nightmare to land with that extreme deck angle. The Lanc and Halifax look almost exactly the same so where does the Lancs advantage come in there-I think there we some Merlin Halifaxes so perhaps it was structural weight for same bomb load ?
But I think Harris' preference for the Lancaster was what ultimately swayed the dynamic. Quoting from his book Bomber Offensive on page 103:
"The Lancaster far surpassed all the other types of heavy bomber. Not only could it take heavier bomb loads, not only was it easier to handle, and not only were there fewer accidents with this than with other types; throughout the war the casualty rates of Lancasters was also consistently below that of other types." Interesting follow-up to explain the last statement:"It is true that in 1944 the wastage of Lancasters from casualties became equal to, and at times even greater than, the wastage of Halifaxes, but this was the exception that proved the rule; at that time I invariably used Lancasters alone for those attacks which involved the deepest penetration into Germany and were consequently the most dangerous."
I'd suggest that to Harris, a casualty was an aircraft not necessarily crew (and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense). By most accounts I've read, the Halifax was not as difficult to abandon in distress as the Lancaster and Stirling, the Lancaster being particularly cramped and hard to bail out from. He goes on to say he was willing to lose a years production of the Halifax to convert the factories into Lancaster production (he did not win that battle).
Kind of interesting that the PFF started with 12 H2S Stirlings and 12 H2S Halifaxes.
Don't forget the Hallibag and the Manchester were built to P13/36 and were supposed to be twin engine bombers powered by the RR Vulture. The Lanc obviously came about after the failure of the Manchester, the Halibag being changed to 4 engines at the design stage The Stirling was the only bomber built to the original 4 engined spec. A Centaurus powered Super Stirling was planned: Top speed over 300mph, 29,000 ft ceiling and bomb load in excess of 20,000lb. However it was decided to continue with current types and Shorts were told to cease work in mid 42.
I visited RAF Luqa in Malta as a keen young lad and asked our host why there were narrow railway tracks in and out of the main hangar. The answer related to the need to shuffle aircraft (prob Shackletons at that time, maybe Stirlings, Lincolns or Lancasters earlier ?) at a diagonal angle to fit through the main doors. Is this related to the thread ? Can anyone explain background or show photos of the trolley contraption involved ? pp Happy New Year
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I presume aerodynamics was the reason for having the tail wheel raised in flight but was it worth the extra complication/weight? I can't recall any other tail wheeled aircraft having this facility.
I also note in the Wiki article that the crewing of the Stirling was different from the other four engine bombers. The Stirling had two pilots and a Flight Engineer, as well as a Navigator/Bomb Aimer, compared to the others having one pilot, a Flight Engineer, Navigator and Air Bomber/Gunner. Unless this was later changed, would this have been another reason for preferring Halifaxes and Lancasters?
I also note in the Wiki article that the crewing of the Stirling was different from the other four engine bombers. The Stirling had two pilots and a Flight Engineer, as well as a Navigator/Bomb Aimer, compared to the others having one pilot, a Flight Engineer, Navigator and Air Bomber/Gunner. Unless this was later changed, would this have been another reason for preferring Halifaxes and Lancasters?
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Don't forget the Hallibag and the Manchester were built to P13/36 and were supposed to be twin engine bombers powered by the RR Vulture. The Lanc obviously came about after the failure of the Manchester, the Halibag being changed to 4 engines at the design stage The Stirling was the only bomber built to the original 4 engined spec. A Centaurus powered Super Stirling was planned: Top speed over 300mph, 29,000 ft ceiling and bomb load in excess of 20,000lb. However it was decided to continue with current types and Shorts were told to cease work in mid 42.
I also note in the Wiki article that the crewing of the Stirling was different from the other four engine bombers. The Stirling had two pilots and a Flight Engineer, as well as a Navigator/Bomb Aimer, compared to the others having one pilot, a Flight Engineer, Navigator and Air Bomber/Gunner. Unless this was later changed, would this have been another reason for preferring Halifaxes and Lancasters?
Off the top of my shiny bald head: B17, Mosquito, P51, Later marks of Spitfire, FW190 (semi retractable), Typhoon all had retractable tailwheels. Drag affects speed and range.
Last edited by Harley Quinn; 2nd Jan 2019 at 14:01.
I can't recall any other tail wheeled aircraft having this facility.
Last edited by oxenos; 2nd Jan 2019 at 16:21. Reason: sp
Pre war and until early 42, bombers carried 2 pilots. Even Wellingtons and Whitleys had 2 pilots. The 2nd pilot would usually do other duties to assist the crew. The decision was taken ,to allow the force to grow, to do away with 2nd pilots and the specialist trade of Flight Engineer was introduced as the 4 engined bombers came more to the fore. Air Bombers also became a specialist trade, relieving the Observer, who now became a Navigator. A number of Bomb Aimers were failed pilots and they or the Flight Engineer would assist the pilot, especially if he was incapacitated. There were a number of cases of Bomb Aimers flying and landing a bomber home after the pilot was incapacitated.
A number of Bomb Aimers were failed pilots and they or the Flight Engineer would assist the pilot, especially if he was incapacitated. There were a number of cases of Bomb Aimers flying and landing a bomber home after the pilot was incapacitated.
John Ian Blair was a prewar Boy Entrant Armourer/Air Gunner - in 1940 as a Corporal (Acting Sergeant) Air Gunner and volunteer Observer on a 113 sqn Blenheim - he was flying as the Observer during an operational sortie,his pilot was killed in action and Blair managed to get the A/C under control and landed safely back at base - he had always closely watched the Pilots actions and had a good idea of what to do.He was awarded the DFM and also given a Pilots course.
From 113 sqn website - http://113squadron.com/id191.htm
From my observations of my skipper's flying , we had done many hours together,. I knew that I had to, change pitch of the propeller, engage rich mixture control, and when the wheels went down there would be a lot of vibration, and loss of speed which I would have to compensate for with increased revs, all of these actions were carried out on the down wind leg , and on the final approach I kept at about 85 mph, knowing that there would be a marked change of aircraft attitude when the flaps were lowered, I trimmed the aircraft tail heavy, (too much,) as it happened, because I had to exert forward stick pressure on the control column in order to maintain my approach path and speed, being aware of the telephone poles and lines at the touch down end of the strip. As soon as I passed over the telephone lines, I throttled back and because the tail trim was tail heavy, the aircraft flared out nicely and sat on the ground. I kept the stick hard backwards with all my strength and eventually the aircraft came to a halt in a cloud of dust.
It's possible that had the RAF gone for two pilots from the beginning with four engine heavies the carnage that killed an enormous number of crews during their training might have been tempered. The initial crewing with one pilot because for no other reason they felt they would get on together OK meant that there was no experience to draw on during their training. Should there have been two pilots then the junior one would have advanced to getting his own crew and having a good idea of what it was all about.
The USAAC seem to cope with two pilots as would have the RAF because their training system was churning out more pilots than they could use.
The USAAC seem to cope with two pilots as would have the RAF because their training system was churning out more pilots than they could use.
Yes but at the outbreak of WW2 - the RAF did not have many observers and therefore we were short of navigators for multi crew aircraft,also partly why I posted the link about Ian Blair - his sqn were so short of Observer/Navs that an Air Gunner was acting as a volunteer Nav/Bomb Aimer,the pre war Air Gunners did sometimes act as Observer on the Biplanes etc but they were not given much (if any) formal training in that role.
Yes but at the outbreak of WW2 - the RAF did not have many observers and therefore we were short of navigators for multi crew aircraft,also partly why I posted the link about Ian Blair - his sqn were so short of Observer/Navs that an Air Gunner was acting as a volunteer Nav/Bomb Aimer,the pre war Air Gunners did sometimes act as Observer on the Biplanes etc but they were not given much (if any) formal training in that role.
Yes R20 - I know 
I was merely explaining why the prewar/early wartime 2nd Pilot was often the Navigator on multi crew aircraft - because the RAF was extremely short of qualified Observers/Navigators.
Ian Blair was included for interest and to reinforce the idea of the shortage of trained/qualified Observers/Navigators.
After 1941/42 large numbers of Observers/Navs became available as the training schools got into gear.
I was merely explaining why the prewar/early wartime 2nd Pilot was often the Navigator on multi crew aircraft - because the RAF was extremely short of qualified Observers/Navigators.
Ian Blair was included for interest and to reinforce the idea of the shortage of trained/qualified Observers/Navigators.
After 1941/42 large numbers of Observers/Navs became available as the training schools got into gear.
It's possible that had the RAF gone for two pilots from the beginning with four engine heavies the carnage that killed an enormous number of crews during their training might have been tempered. The initial crewing with one pilot because for no other reason they felt they would get on together OK meant that there was no experience to draw on during their training. Should there have been two pilots then the junior one would have advanced to getting his own crew and having a good idea of what it was all about.
The USAAC seem to cope with two pilots as would have the RAF because their training system was churning out more pilots than they could use.
The USAAC seem to cope with two pilots as would have the RAF because their training system was churning out more pilots than they could use.
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Also thanks to all.
However, I'm still not clear if Stirling's retained the two pilot set up or also later changed to one pilot and flight engineer, seeing as they had a different crewing arrangement then the other two heavy bombers. Then later of course it was used for towing gliders, perhaps leading to another arrangement. The only pictures I've seen on the internet show two sets of control gear in the cockpit.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-manual.html
However, I'm still not clear if Stirling's retained the two pilot set up or also later changed to one pilot and flight engineer, seeing as they had a different crewing arrangement then the other two heavy bombers. Then later of course it was used for towing gliders, perhaps leading to another arrangement. The only pictures I've seen on the internet show two sets of control gear in the cockpit.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-manual.html
Yes I doubt there is an easy answer to your question Hipper,I have seen crew photos with either 1 or 2 Pilots included.
I was under the impression that some crews used the Bomb Aimer in the cockpit for T/O and Landing and also when not req'd to assist with Navigation.
The Flight Eng would perhaps be busy down in the bilges with his man sized controls.
Of course most Bomber Pilots did 1 or 2 'Stooge' trips with an experienced skipper before being declared operational.
I was under the impression that some crews used the Bomb Aimer in the cockpit for T/O and Landing and also when not req'd to assist with Navigation.
The Flight Eng would perhaps be busy down in the bilges with his man sized controls.
Of course most Bomber Pilots did 1 or 2 'Stooge' trips with an experienced skipper before being declared operational.