Lancasters and Lincolns
Thread Starter
Lancasters and Lincolns
What was the reasoning behind the different nose glazing on the Lincoln? Something to do with giving the bomb aimer flat rather than curved Perspex to look through?
I have no specific information however -
I notice that the glazed area of the Lincoln is much larger than that of the Lancaster. The glazed area is presumably larger since the bomb aimer/gunner seems to have to use the area for sighting the nose guns.
As mentioned already the Lancaster does have a flat panel for use with a bombsight.
So perhaps -
An unsupported bubble may not have been structurally possible or may have been too heavy if made thick enough to be self supporting.
Optical distortions due to the curved panels that were acceptable in the Lancaster for the purposes of general observation may not have been acceptable for use with a gunsight.
Flat panels may have been cheaper.
I notice that the glazed area of the Lincoln is much larger than that of the Lancaster. The glazed area is presumably larger since the bomb aimer/gunner seems to have to use the area for sighting the nose guns.
As mentioned already the Lancaster does have a flat panel for use with a bombsight.
So perhaps -
An unsupported bubble may not have been structurally possible or may have been too heavy if made thick enough to be self supporting.
Optical distortions due to the curved panels that were acceptable in the Lancaster for the purposes of general observation may not have been acceptable for use with a gunsight.
Flat panels may have been cheaper.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 87
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone that worked on Lincolns, I must admit that I never asked.
The Lincoln remember was specified and designed for use in the Far East, so could it be anything to do with ventilation?
The Lincoln remember was specified and designed for use in the Far East, so could it be anything to do with ventilation?
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: RPVI
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the Lancaster it was found that where the front turret had to be manned on a bomb run, the feet of the gunner obstructed the bomb aimer.
The remodelled nose on the Lincoln was designed so that the bomb aimer could be seated rather than prone. It also allowed him to control the forward turret from his seated position. An altogether more satisfactory arrangement.
The remodelled nose on the Lincoln was designed so that the bomb aimer could be seated rather than prone. It also allowed him to control the forward turret from his seated position. An altogether more satisfactory arrangement.
One thing for sure and that was the angled glass front turret of the Lincoln Mk 31 once caused this writer a few seconds of angst when we were trying to illuminate a suspected surfaced submarine during a midnight exercise in the Timor Sea.
We had him on radar at 10 miles (a miracle on the ASV Mk 7 radar) and bored in to drop sonobuoys. Lincolns did not have searchlights so we couldn't illuminate the sub. We tried the landing light which was situated under the left wing but we were going like the clappers and that failed in a shower of sparks.
That left the Aldis light. At 500 ft on the radio altimeter the Tactical navigator tried shining the Aldis light through the glass panels of the nose aiming at the sea in the blackness ahead. It only succeeded in reflecting a bright light back into the cockpit wrecking any night vision and temporarily blinding the pilot (me). With that, the radar contact disappeared no doubt scared by what he thought was a bloody great gun firing at him. We pulled out at 200 feet and climbed back to safety. The contact was reported to base via HF radio. Our Navy denied having any of their subs in the area and put it down to whales copulating on the surface.
We had him on radar at 10 miles (a miracle on the ASV Mk 7 radar) and bored in to drop sonobuoys. Lincolns did not have searchlights so we couldn't illuminate the sub. We tried the landing light which was situated under the left wing but we were going like the clappers and that failed in a shower of sparks.
That left the Aldis light. At 500 ft on the radio altimeter the Tactical navigator tried shining the Aldis light through the glass panels of the nose aiming at the sea in the blackness ahead. It only succeeded in reflecting a bright light back into the cockpit wrecking any night vision and temporarily blinding the pilot (me). With that, the radar contact disappeared no doubt scared by what he thought was a bloody great gun firing at him. We pulled out at 200 feet and climbed back to safety. The contact was reported to base via HF radio. Our Navy denied having any of their subs in the area and put it down to whales copulating on the surface.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was a lucky ATC cadet in the mid-1950s and used to get trips in Lincolns of 7 Squadron from Upwood. I remembrer one flight down to Farnborough in January 1955 when it was snowing outside. I was in the front turret and it was snowing inside too. The rivet holes were not quite air tight.
Laurence
Laurence
The rivet holes were not quite air tight.
As I explained on another thread:-
It is not generally known that Avro built a prototype flying boat to compete for the Specification R.2/33 (which gave rise to the Sunderland). It was built in great secrecy at Woodford, taken in bits to a secret hangar next to the Manchester Ship Canal, and assembled.
Came launch day. It slid down the slipway into the water, and just went on going down, leaving nothing but a few bubbles. The whole thing was hushed up,and Avro never built another flying boat.
Came launch day. It slid down the slipway into the water, and just went on going down, leaving nothing but a few bubbles. The whole thing was hushed up,and Avro never built another flying boat.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...the feet of the gunner obstructed the bomb aimer.
Except on a 617 Special Lancaster where the displaced mid-upper gunner was sent up front - but they fitted stirrups for that operation.
Lancaster crew - Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Bomb Aimer, Wireless Operator (generally dual trade WOP/AG just in case), Mid-upper Gunner, Rear Gunner. Seven men altogether and no Front Gunner.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: South Africa
Age: 87
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you'll find that the feet of the gunner were on the end of the Bomb-Aimer's legs.
Except on a 617 Special Lancaster where the displaced mid-upper gunner was sent up front - but they fitted stirrups for that operation.
Lancaster crew - Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Bomb Aimer, Wireless Operator (generally dual trade WOP/AG just in case), Mid-upper Gunner, Rear Gunner. Seven men altogether and no Front Gunner.
Except on a 617 Special Lancaster where the displaced mid-upper gunner was sent up front - but they fitted stirrups for that operation.
Lancaster crew - Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Bomb Aimer, Wireless Operator (generally dual trade WOP/AG just in case), Mid-upper Gunner, Rear Gunner. Seven men altogether and no Front Gunner.
If he was Radar Bombing, that is H2S or Gee-H, he stayed in the Navigators seat.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Watford, South of Watford Gap
Age: 68
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Ian16th
The aircrew trades of Navigator and Bomb Aimer (officially, Air Bomber) were introduced IIRC in 1941. Prior to that, Observers had the dual roles of navigation and bomb aiming. Most of the non-pilot aircrew trades had secondary roles - the BA would fly the aircraft if the pilot became incapacitated, and most of the others were trained as gunners "just in case".
My understanding is that the front turret was rarely used - which is why some Lancasters had them removed and faired over.
The aircrew trades of Navigator and Bomb Aimer (officially, Air Bomber) were introduced IIRC in 1941. Prior to that, Observers had the dual roles of navigation and bomb aiming. Most of the non-pilot aircrew trades had secondary roles - the BA would fly the aircraft if the pilot became incapacitated, and most of the others were trained as gunners "just in case".
My understanding is that the front turret was rarely used - which is why some Lancasters had them removed and faired over.
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: RPVI
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you'll find that the feet of the gunner were on the end of the Bomb-Aimer's legs.
Lancaster crew - Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Bomb Aimer, Wireless Operator (generally dual trade WOP/AG just in case), Mid-upper Gunner, Rear Gunner. Seven men altogether and no Front Gunner.
Lancaster crew - Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Bomb Aimer, Wireless Operator (generally dual trade WOP/AG just in case), Mid-upper Gunner, Rear Gunner. Seven men altogether and no Front Gunner.
The feet of the person manning the gun would not be anywhere near the lower legs of the bomb aimer unless the bomb aimer was a dwarf!
It was precisely for that reason that the "Chastise"aircraft had stirrups installed as the forward turret would be required to be manned on the bomb run.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear, however I did not imply that a dedicated crew member was carried to man the forward turret.
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: RPVI
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The main aim was to reduce airframe weight in order to allow the carriage of outsize weapons such as the 22,000lbs "Grand Slam."
These specialised weapons were expected to be delivered in daylight when flak was the primary threat. The ability to deliver theses weapons from a higher altitude in order to avoid the worst of the flak may also have been a consideration.
By the latter days of the war a strong escort force would be deployed in order to provide an effective screen against a much depleted Luftwaffe, hence the turrets were largely superfluous.
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: RPVI
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For anyone seeking some a good readable book detailing the career of the Avro Lincoln may I recommend "Lincoln at War", by Mike Garbett and Brian Goulding. Published by Ian Allan 1979 and reprinted 1999. ISBN 0 7110 0847 7. 176 pages. Well illustrated with plenty of B&W photos of both British and Australian and a few of Argentinian and demobbed aircraft.
As this volume is long out print it is likely that you may be hard pressed to locate an unused edition. You may however be able to locate a used copy on the secondary / used market. Happy hunting!
As this volume is long out print it is likely that you may be hard pressed to locate an unused edition. You may however be able to locate a used copy on the secondary / used market. Happy hunting!
Thread Starter
Even a cursory look at the nose of Lancaster fitted with a forward turret will confirm that the feet of the person manning the turret would at least, be in pole position to interfere with the upper torso of the bomb aimer.
The feet of the person manning the gun would not be anywhere near the lower legs of the bomb aimer unless the bomb aimer was a dwarf!
It was precisely for that reason that the "Chastise"aircraft had stirrups installed as the forward turret would be required to be manned on the bomb run.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear, however I did not imply that a dedicated crew member was carried to man the forward turret.
The feet of the person manning the gun would not be anywhere near the lower legs of the bomb aimer unless the bomb aimer was a dwarf!
It was precisely for that reason that the "Chastise"aircraft had stirrups installed as the forward turret would be required to be manned on the bomb run.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear, however I did not imply that a dedicated crew member was carried to man the forward turret.