Flight engineers
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Flight engineers
Practically an extinct species now, but I'm curious to know more about them.
Did the airlines train them internally or did they train at their own expense then start looking for a job?
Did they come from a ground maintenance background?
What were the medical requirements, was it a way of getting onto the flight deck without a class one?
Did the airlines train them internally or did they train at their own expense then start looking for a job?
Did they come from a ground maintenance background?
What were the medical requirements, was it a way of getting onto the flight deck without a class one?
The RAF was a major source of Flt Engineers until the 1980’s and ground engineers also obtained Flt Eng licences after passing type technical exams and completing the required number of supervised sectors. Not sure what the medical requirements were, apart from a good bladder to hold copious amounts of beer. Many were blessed with an evil sense of humour and poor eyesight as they always made a beeline for the ugliest available girl. It was sad to see them go and their absence left a big gap in the crew. 
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Sources depended on airline philosophy and local mores. Anywhere from junior pilots marking time to well-trained, highly experienced technicians.
Ansett, for instance, took all its FEs from licenced ground mechanic staff .. and, I presume, TAA/Qantas likewise. This often presented some problems with flight training as the gingerbeer background led to their going up the wrong path (ie bits and pieces) in troubleshooting .. but, after a bit, they got their stuff in a pile and were a great fliight deck asset. In the post-89 disaster in Australia, many (who had a CPL) moved into the right seat and, subsequently, command positions.
Overnights .. another story altogether ...
Ansett, for instance, took all its FEs from licenced ground mechanic staff .. and, I presume, TAA/Qantas likewise. This often presented some problems with flight training as the gingerbeer background led to their going up the wrong path (ie bits and pieces) in troubleshooting .. but, after a bit, they got their stuff in a pile and were a great fliight deck asset. In the post-89 disaster in Australia, many (who had a CPL) moved into the right seat and, subsequently, command positions.
Overnights .. another story altogether ...
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I was flying at a time, in the Services and Civil, when the other crew members started to depart. First to go were the Air Eletronics or radio men, then the Navigators and finally the flight engineers.
I missed having the "Gingerbeers" around until I retired. They often had a really good hangar engineering background and could come up with solutions that kept the show on the road. Not to mention their skills in acting as referee between the two pilots!
I missed having the "Gingerbeers" around until I retired. They often had a really good hangar engineering background and could come up with solutions that kept the show on the road. Not to mention their skills in acting as referee between the two pilots!
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Flight Engineers
In Australia, it was common practice for each airline to select candidates from their ground staff (engineers) and provide the training. There was a formal, technical examination set by DCA and a medical. The airline provided the subsequent, line training followed by a proficiency check. An annual medical check was required to be performed by an endorsed medico and it was similar to the six monthly exam, for the pilots. A similar situation existed in the U.K. though the examination (in the 60's) was set by The Board of Trade, Fees were paid to a HM Office and the medical usually done by the R.A.F. in London or an appointed medico-the exam was set by the ARB. B.O.A.C. attempted to integrate their F/E's in the sim and on line with some promising results and a few airlines tried to follow suit. A good F/E was a man who operated the systems and understood them in such a way that a fault in the system was dealt with in a much better way than today's "Automatics", particularly with a system that can kill everyone on board, painlessly and insidiously, such as pressurisation. Cost of the extra man's salary coupled with the odd pilot who resented any intrusion in to his domain and was a factor in this crewman's demise. pjac
I spent all my flying career with flight engineers and they were worth their weight in gold. When BOAC changed to 3 man crews after the advent of INS they did not "attempt" to integrate the flight engineers, they DID integrate them, and they became invaluable members of the team - not only working their panel but monitoring the flight path, reading checklists and, of course, being able to troubleshoot and fix things beyond the average pilot's ken.
I know nothing about the medical requirements, but their backgrounds were many and varied, some came from the Navy, some from the RAF and many from the hangars where, as licensed engineers, they had developed an intimate knowledge of the aircraft they flew on.
It was a sad day when they were replaced by the automatics. Their third pair of eyes picked up many a slip, preventing minor mistakes from becoming major incidents.
I know nothing about the medical requirements, but their backgrounds were many and varied, some came from the Navy, some from the RAF and many from the hangars where, as licensed engineers, they had developed an intimate knowledge of the aircraft they flew on.
It was a sad day when they were replaced by the automatics. Their third pair of eyes picked up many a slip, preventing minor mistakes from becoming major incidents.
Here in Oz the airlines trained FEOs from the LAMEs. A few ex military were also recruited but there were few of those. FEOs are required to hold a class 1 medical like ATPL. A very interesting line of work because you sat in the middle and so had a clear view of every instrument on all panels hence a crook one was obvious. We generally saw ourselves as able to advise on all facets of the operation because we tended to be less loaded up when things went bad, so we had a bit more spare capacity to think things through. Once you knew your stuff you were generally a bit ahead of the captain's requests for things like diversion fuel and so they'd buy you a beer.
An excellent you tube clip about FEOs is named Stuck in the Middle - FEs Lament 2010. A good fun watch!!
An excellent you tube clip about FEOs is named Stuck in the Middle - FEs Lament 2010. A good fun watch!!
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I spent 31 years of my working life as a Flight Engineer,
My background was a 5 year apprenticeship followed by two and half years working in the hangar. Using this as my experience background I went and sat the CAA basic F/E exam and then went for a medical at the RAF centre in London. From there I eventually got offered a job as a Cadet F/E and so proceeded to do the Type Technical and sit the
exam. This followed by basic sim [cardboard bomber] , local flying route flying under supervision and then hopefully checked out on your own. Shortly afterwards the airline unfortunately went bust.
I then was offered a position with the "Better on a Camel airline" and the course her was even longer
Type technical sim and flying the same but added to this a introduction to navigation obtaining a radio licence , learning Morse code, interpretation of weather charts and perhaps more which I have long forgotten, but one thing that was different was the Type Technical exam was the same as for the pilots but the F/E had to do extra tuition looking at the system in greater depth so as to be issued with their Limited approval on that aircraft [ In house qualification]
Renewal of your licence was based on a six monthly Sim Check, and an annual route check. The F/E also had to do a six monthly type technical check which involved a day long technical question and answer session along with visit to the hangar [ in house requirement]
The Medical was a Class One with a medical examination annually. The need for hearing test, X-rays , ECG were the same as a pilot. Near the end of my career there was talk of F/E only requiring a class 2 licence but i fail to remember whether this was taken up
Now in the USA F/E worked under different rues and only required a type 2 medical
It was a good life
My background was a 5 year apprenticeship followed by two and half years working in the hangar. Using this as my experience background I went and sat the CAA basic F/E exam and then went for a medical at the RAF centre in London. From there I eventually got offered a job as a Cadet F/E and so proceeded to do the Type Technical and sit the
exam. This followed by basic sim [cardboard bomber] , local flying route flying under supervision and then hopefully checked out on your own. Shortly afterwards the airline unfortunately went bust.
I then was offered a position with the "Better on a Camel airline" and the course her was even longer
Type technical sim and flying the same but added to this a introduction to navigation obtaining a radio licence , learning Morse code, interpretation of weather charts and perhaps more which I have long forgotten, but one thing that was different was the Type Technical exam was the same as for the pilots but the F/E had to do extra tuition looking at the system in greater depth so as to be issued with their Limited approval on that aircraft [ In house qualification]
Renewal of your licence was based on a six monthly Sim Check, and an annual route check. The F/E also had to do a six monthly type technical check which involved a day long technical question and answer session along with visit to the hangar [ in house requirement]
The Medical was a Class One with a medical examination annually. The need for hearing test, X-rays , ECG were the same as a pilot. Near the end of my career there was talk of F/E only requiring a class 2 licence but i fail to remember whether this was taken up
Now in the USA F/E worked under different rues and only required a type 2 medical
It was a good life
Brit312,
I bet the Connie is fun!
I bet the Connie is fun!
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I spent 3 months of my life as a Flight Engineer, or Second Officer on the B-727-200.
Had plenty pilot experience prior, including left seat Twin Otters, DC-3s and B-747-200.
Always enjoyed working with F/E’s but never thought I was going to end up in the F/E seat myself.
After my regular gig went South in 2000 another job came up and I was able to choose between B-767 F/O, or B-727 F/E.
I chose the F/E position to avoid commuting and to try something new. (How hard can it be?)
Big mistake.
Training was pretty intense for a lazy pilot type like myself.
All kinds of flows, big U and little U, and had to preflight the cockpit and all 3 seats in 20 minutes, instructors with stop watch in hand.
Finished training and passed my exams then on the line.
Flew a total of 92 hours in the F/E seat and realized this was not for me. With airplane changes during the day one was running from gate to gate pre-flighting new planes, inside and out, paperwork and the 20 min cockpit inspection, outside walk around, fixing coffee makers for the F/As, etc. Then during flight sitting sideways hopeing nothing would happen.
After a few months I bid to a window seat and got the B-767 right seat.
Proud of my F/E ticket, but we were not “real” Flight Engineers as no mechanic or maintenance background were required, just an FAA written test for the F/E turbo jet license and a second class physical. After 9/11 I was laid off from my cushy B-767 job and ended up left seat again on the B-747-200 with real F/Es for a third rate freight outfit. Now I had a better appreciation for their job as I had tasted it myself.
Had plenty pilot experience prior, including left seat Twin Otters, DC-3s and B-747-200.
Always enjoyed working with F/E’s but never thought I was going to end up in the F/E seat myself.
After my regular gig went South in 2000 another job came up and I was able to choose between B-767 F/O, or B-727 F/E.
I chose the F/E position to avoid commuting and to try something new. (How hard can it be?)
Big mistake.
Training was pretty intense for a lazy pilot type like myself.
All kinds of flows, big U and little U, and had to preflight the cockpit and all 3 seats in 20 minutes, instructors with stop watch in hand.
Finished training and passed my exams then on the line.
Flew a total of 92 hours in the F/E seat and realized this was not for me. With airplane changes during the day one was running from gate to gate pre-flighting new planes, inside and out, paperwork and the 20 min cockpit inspection, outside walk around, fixing coffee makers for the F/As, etc. Then during flight sitting sideways hopeing nothing would happen.
After a few months I bid to a window seat and got the B-767 right seat.
Proud of my F/E ticket, but we were not “real” Flight Engineers as no mechanic or maintenance background were required, just an FAA written test for the F/E turbo jet license and a second class physical. After 9/11 I was laid off from my cushy B-767 job and ended up left seat again on the B-747-200 with real F/Es for a third rate freight outfit. Now I had a better appreciation for their job as I had tasted it myself.
A key requirement for Flight Engineers was a liking for chicken.
As in ‘your crew meals are Lobster, filet steak and chicken” Captain “I’ll have the lobster” First Officer “I’ll have the filet steak” Engineer “Whopee chicken”.
As in ‘your crew meals are Lobster, filet steak and chicken” Captain “I’ll have the lobster” First Officer “I’ll have the filet steak” Engineer “Whopee chicken”.
They also had a great propensity for getting pilots into trouble on the ground, but keeping them out of trouble in the air!
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A contender for the hardest job in civil aviation, ever, must be FE on Concorde. I remember a talk given by Roger Bricknell (ex BA Conc FE) at the Royal Aeronautical Society where he stated that you needed a certain type of brain for that job - talk about multi-tasking, the FE would commonly have two check lists running concurrently (and the aeroplane didn't wait for you to catch up), and if there was a problem, maybe a third also concurrently running.
Anyone who has had the privilege of travelling on Concorde's flight deck for a complete flight will have seen first hand just how integrated those crews were. In my humble opinion as a mere PPL, the pilots had it easy on the beautiful white bird compared to the FE. And of course there two of them!
If anyone ever says men can't multi-task, point them at a Concorde FE panel.
Anyone who has had the privilege of travelling on Concorde's flight deck for a complete flight will have seen first hand just how integrated those crews were. In my humble opinion as a mere PPL, the pilots had it easy on the beautiful white bird compared to the FE. And of course there two of them!
If anyone ever says men can't multi-task, point them at a Concorde FE panel.
Whilst F/Es were valued members of long haul crews in Europe there seemed to more antagonism from pilots (or at least their union) in the U.S. and Canada with ALPA insisting on all new cockpit entrants being pilots when the jets were introduced. F/Es were often referred to as Second Officers to keep them in their place. Different airlines went different ways. There were some long industrial disputes. I believe that Western Airlines sacked all theirs in the early 60s. New cockpit entrants with Pan Am were all pilots but could serve as F/Es until promoted and were covered by the Flight Engineers International contract.
Inter-union disputes were not just a UK thing.
Inter-union disputes were not just a UK thing.
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. F/Es were often referred to as Second Officers to keep them in their place.
Flight engineers lament just in case you haven’t seen it
https://youtu.be/_4TRSYhrEJE
First job was three pilot, the advantage was watching the more experienced guys flying.
Second was with bergeries’ lot ..generally very good as they had a different chief who wouldn’t put up with cowboy pilot behaviour although there is a famous incident which nearly lead to an airframe loss in another fleet.
My third had guys who had served apprenticeships followed by working in the hangar. Mostly good but sometimes diifficult as they were all in the military together with the captain of senior rank. When I started an ex ww2 FO recounted a story where they were taking less than legal fuel..in the end he picked up his suitcase to go back to the hotel..the skipper caught up with him and told him he would take the extra fuel but couldn’t be seen by the FE to have made a mistake.
We latterly converted first officers onto the third seat when we were going to two crew..a years ground course. The FEs were retrained as pilots.
Great times..mostly.
First job was three pilot, the advantage was watching the more experienced guys flying.
Second was with bergeries’ lot ..generally very good as they had a different chief who wouldn’t put up with cowboy pilot behaviour although there is a famous incident which nearly lead to an airframe loss in another fleet.
My third had guys who had served apprenticeships followed by working in the hangar. Mostly good but sometimes diifficult as they were all in the military together with the captain of senior rank. When I started an ex ww2 FO recounted a story where they were taking less than legal fuel..in the end he picked up his suitcase to go back to the hotel..the skipper caught up with him and told him he would take the extra fuel but couldn’t be seen by the FE to have made a mistake.
We latterly converted first officers onto the third seat when we were going to two crew..a years ground course. The FEs were retrained as pilots.
Great times..mostly.
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Once you got the big fans reliabilty was sooooo much better than the days of the large piston engined jobs - and electronics came in with FADEC etc so the FE became unnecessary - or rather not cost-effective
Bit like a Navigator - once essental , now seems unbelievably quaint
Bit like a Navigator - once essental , now seems unbelievably quaint
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
H.H. They have never been unnecessary, and cost-effectiveness is a subjective topic. I wonder how many air-frames would have been saved. Once an emergency occurs in a two-crew aircraft you have one pilot effectively operating single-pilot, while the other deals with the emergency. How much better to be able to retain the two-crew safety, while a third member deals with the checklist, problem etc?
I really enjoyed flying with a Flight Engineer on the crew because they were a great CRM leveler as they were not trying to become a captain! So saying, I flew with one ex-RAF F/E who went to the airlines, swapped seats and became one of the finest captains that I ever had the privilege of flying with. A role change like that gave him a phenomenal understanding of working as a crew (as well as him being a really pleasant person).
We had one F/E in the company who had an interesting career path. He started off in the army (REME), then became an army helicopter pilot, then 22 Regt SAS. Whilst in that role he trained as a F/E and flew the line with a major UK airline as part of his task. He then left the regular army and became a full time F/E with the same company but maintained military service with one of the TA SAS Regiments. Finally, he left the TA and settled down to be a F/E - but what fantastic stories he told when we went down route! Happy days.
We had one F/E in the company who had an interesting career path. He started off in the army (REME), then became an army helicopter pilot, then 22 Regt SAS. Whilst in that role he trained as a F/E and flew the line with a major UK airline as part of his task. He then left the regular army and became a full time F/E with the same company but maintained military service with one of the TA SAS Regiments. Finally, he left the TA and settled down to be a F/E - but what fantastic stories he told when we went down route! Happy days.