BAe 146 - was it a commercial success?
BAe 146 - was it a commercial success?
I'm watching this collection of films which shows that the 146 had a very large commercial focus. Ultimately was it a success commercially??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AYAKH4jOUw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AYAKH4jOUw
An interesting film in which the commentator suggests that B.Ae needed 350 sales to break even. Wikipedia has a lower estimate of 250 sales. I think the final total was 387 which might suggest the programme was successful. I leave it to others to debate what the choice of and number of engines did to the costs. Personally, as a former regular user of the Air UK service from Stansted to Frankfurt , I found it comfortable for the 80 minute sector and I don't think I was ever delayed more than a few minutes, even in some extreme German winter weather when the "nation's favourite airline " was cancelling some of it's flights.
I leave it to others to debate what the choice of and number of engines did to the costs.
In the early 80's my employer was looking to replace its regional fleet.
Hatfield was peddling the 146 at the same time that Weybridge
was trying to push its Tay-engined 1-11 project.
We were left with the distinct impression of, shall we say, partisan
behaviour from both sides - can't have helped the 146's early sales
(IMHO)
Hatfield was peddling the 146 at the same time that Weybridge
was trying to push its Tay-engined 1-11 project.
We were left with the distinct impression of, shall we say, partisan
behaviour from both sides - can't have helped the 146's early sales
(IMHO)
What's more the use of four engines gave us a better integrity of systems than a twin could have and the good field performance we wanted was easier to achieve. i.e. we took full advantage of having four engines, once we had decided that was the way we'd go.
Before someone tries to convince us that the RR Tay was an engine suitable for a twin, the 146 was initially launched some 10+ years before the Tay first ran in 1984 - and even after the delayed re-launch we demonstrated a 146 all the way from home to New Zealand and back in 1982!
By the time the 146 was re-launched, the Weybridge and Hatfield sites had been British Aerospace for a couple of years and building up the Sales/Tech Sales department in 1978-80, we had a number of Weybridge and Filton folk working at Hatfield so I might have heard had there been anything.
I think there was a ROMBAC-led plan for a Tay-111 but that would have been much later (late '80s at least).
Last edited by Allan Lupton; 14th Aug 2015 at 14:56. Reason: clarification
Wasn't it a US company Dee Howard who re-engine the 1-11 with Tays? If my memory serves me correct, BAe withdrew support for the aircraft when they realised that it would have become a threat to 146 sales.
The Mancunians were trying to sell the ATP at about the same time as we were selling 146s so that may have been the basis, as it was a 748 development.
Allan, think it's Afro-Carribean jargon for "disrespecting", whatever that means! 
As for the ATP being a possible competitor, 
...
VG, does your figure of 387 sales include the RJs?
As for the ATP being a possible competitor, ...VG, does your figure of 387 sales include the RJs?
In my short, very short, career with an airline based in SEN and run by a man, a fully qualified engineer, who did not do well at charm school, I was sent to Hatfield to talk to them, run the numbers and generally assess the BAe 146's suitability, as a replacement for Heralds in the ACMI business the airline specialised in at the time.
This was well before its first flight in September 1981.
I did that, and composed a thoughtful report, summarising the pros and cons as they would affect the profits it could make, blah blah. I added at the end that a useful and very beneficial feature was that you could stow a complete engine in the hold to minimise the problems of having to change one away from base.
He scanned through the report, and got to the bit at the end.
"You f*****g plonker", he said, "That's because it's the only engine they can use, it's a f*****g chopper engine, and they know it'll need changing a lot".
Shortly after that he went to LHR in his Cessna to call in a favour from an old acquaintance and buy instead the BA Viscount fleet, then at Rhoose, as a better commercial bet. Which it was at the price he paid.
This was well before its first flight in September 1981.
I did that, and composed a thoughtful report, summarising the pros and cons as they would affect the profits it could make, blah blah. I added at the end that a useful and very beneficial feature was that you could stow a complete engine in the hold to minimise the problems of having to change one away from base.
He scanned through the report, and got to the bit at the end.
"You f*****g plonker", he said, "That's because it's the only engine they can use, it's a f*****g chopper engine, and they know it'll need changing a lot".
Shortly after that he went to LHR in his Cessna to call in a favour from an old acquaintance and buy instead the BA Viscount fleet, then at Rhoose, as a better commercial bet. Which it was at the price he paid.
Last edited by old,not bold; 14th Aug 2015 at 20:05.
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I suspect MK made the sensible decision, I think that it is true to say that I carried out more unscheduled engine changes during my four years on 146's than in 20 years on the Dart powered aircraft.
Also cleaned very oily air conditioning filters quite regularly.
Also cleaned very oily air conditioning filters quite regularly.
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The problem with trying to determine break-even is that, as with Lockeed's TriStar project, many of the 387 revenue airframes weren't 'sold' as such but were placed with airlines under complex financing projects with BAe assuming the risk if they fell-through.
IIRC PSA bought their fleet outright with cash but most of the small operators relied on BAe to corral-together various banks and finance packages. Even Dan-Air had some sort of partial-sale-partial-lease arrangement.
Edit: turns-out PSA didn't do straight-cash either, here's a snippet from Flight:
The creation of BAE AMO in the 1990s was an atempt to eke-out the 146's service life and keep the program cashflow moving. Not sure if they ever achieved that before selling-off the entire portfolio, but they did manage to sell-for-cash a fair few formerly-leased airframes.
Given the target of 350 noted up-thread, the construction of 394 airframes and the costs of the RJ and RJX re-launches I'd guess ( as an uninvolved outsider ) that it overall lost money.
IIRC PSA bought their fleet outright with cash but most of the small operators relied on BAe to corral-together various banks and finance packages. Even Dan-Air had some sort of partial-sale-partial-lease arrangement.
Edit: turns-out PSA didn't do straight-cash either, here's a snippet from Flight:
Payment for the 146s initially is through a leverage lease on the first ten,
arranged by BAe and allowing BAe and PSA to take advantage of US tax laws.
BAe is providing a proportion of debt support on the next ten aeroplanes, as well
as on the Rediffusion phase 3 simulator which PSA will install.
ECGD financing would have been available for the second ten, but overall it is not
appropriate for the full package.
arranged by BAe and allowing BAe and PSA to take advantage of US tax laws.
BAe is providing a proportion of debt support on the next ten aeroplanes, as well
as on the Rediffusion phase 3 simulator which PSA will install.
ECGD financing would have been available for the second ten, but overall it is not
appropriate for the full package.
Given the target of 350 noted up-thread, the construction of 394 airframes and the costs of the RJ and RJX re-launches I'd guess ( as an uninvolved outsider ) that it overall lost money.
Last edited by El Bunto; 15th Aug 2015 at 10:09.
I'm off from London City to Dublin next week and always make sure the office books me on the 146/RJ from Cityjet instead of the competing BA Embraer jet. It's nice to be back in a UK-built airliner. And I think if it wasn't for the 146 bringing jet service to LCY, they would not have got out of the commercial hole the airport was in shortly after opening. There aren't as many operating from there as previously, but you can still see a good number on the ramp each day.
I think that, Airbus apart, it was second only to the Viscount in mainstream airliner sales from any European manufacturer, and if they had continued with the RJX would likely have overtaken the Viscount's numbers as well.
I think that, Airbus apart, it was second only to the Viscount in mainstream airliner sales from any European manufacturer, and if they had continued with the RJX would likely have overtaken the Viscount's numbers as well.
Good point. And I suppose that most of the Soviet types were built on the European side of the continental divide as well. But certainly for the UK industry, and for jets.
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Slight thread drift, but a new route is opened today using the Avro RJ85 'quad jet'!
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