Gustave Whitehead: First in Flight breaking news
And, it does so happen that every major aviation triumph was american. Anyone care to offer another opinion?
Yes, my opinion is that this is the most blinkered, nationalist and wildly untrue statement I have ever read on PPRuNe !
Yes, my opinion is that this is the most blinkered, nationalist and wildly untrue statement I have ever read on PPRuNe !
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the P51 would not have existed except for the british, interesting.
would the british exist if not for the P51? Or the lockheed hudson, or B17, B24, or the Harvard? And certainly would not exist if it had not been for the C47/dakota.
Again, MAJOR , not minor things
surprised you have not taken credit for the overhead reading light , or the wemac.
would the british exist if not for the P51? Or the lockheed hudson, or B17, B24, or the Harvard? And certainly would not exist if it had not been for the C47/dakota.
Again, MAJOR , not minor things
surprised you have not taken credit for the overhead reading light , or the wemac.
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It seems from this thread that the criteria have now been "stretched" so that only those with a scientific background qualify as important pioneers.
So for those who want "Aviation Science" to be a criterion for determining pioneering achievements, learn about Cayley here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=George_Cayley
He set down the scientific principles for flight in 1799, quite a long time before Wright, Whitehead, Ader and others.
Look too at the Royal Aeronautical Society, founded in 1866:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...utical_Society
Look too at Stringfellow:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stringfellow
If these are not American enough to be considered as significant to Flight, consider that Chanute and the Wright Brothers, and many other pioneers were avid readers of every paper published by RAeS.
(These links happen to concern British aviation, but I do not ignore or dismiss the contributions and achievements of many others around the world!)
So for those who want "Aviation Science" to be a criterion for determining pioneering achievements, learn about Cayley here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=George_Cayley
He set down the scientific principles for flight in 1799, quite a long time before Wright, Whitehead, Ader and others.
Look too at the Royal Aeronautical Society, founded in 1866:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...utical_Society
Look too at Stringfellow:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stringfellow
If these are not American enough to be considered as significant to Flight, consider that Chanute and the Wright Brothers, and many other pioneers were avid readers of every paper published by RAeS.
(These links happen to concern British aviation, but I do not ignore or dismiss the contributions and achievements of many others around the world!)
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I seem to recall that the wright plane was on display in england for many years, up until 1942 I think.
thinking about flying is one thing
DOING flying is the criteria. (sic)
thinking about flying is one thing
DOING flying is the criteria. (sic)
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Traditionally, I like the AHN bit of PPRuNe because most people talk sense. Occasionally a skewed or myopic view is presented and, despite the balanced inputs of others, that view remains; this undermines the ordinarily mature discussion that can be found here..
The true irony is that skyhighfallguy is probably of British/Irish/Spanish/Italian/Etc descent and is quite possibly proud of his family heritage.
The true irony is that skyhighfallguy is probably of British/Irish/Spanish/Italian/Etc descent and is quite possibly proud of his family heritage.
the P51 would not have existed except for the british, interesting.
skyhighfallguy is probably of British/Irish/Spanish/Italian
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And the bit about german technology and research was interesting, but they seemed to borrow heavily from Goddard's work on rockets.
Goddard was fully aware of the British Army's use of Congreve's explosive rockets a century or two previously, and of Chinese ones dating back to centuries earlier.
the montgolfiers didn't invent hot air!
Correct. Likewise the Wrights did not invent air, aerodynamics, wings, tailplanes, propellers internal combustion engines, and under-carriage. Furthermore, birds and insects have used wing warping for millions of years. In fact, once the IC engine had been invented, and was providing better power to weight ratios than other power sources, then Powered Controlled and Sustained flight was INEViTABLE, thanks to science and experiments by RAeS and others.
Exclude the Montgolfiers by that Criterion, and you logically exclude the Wrights!
I agree strongly with Cows getting bigger, I love AHN, I love good discussion and I am happy to learn new facts and even be proved wrong occasionally, but myopic nationalism and xenophobia spoil the discussion.
Goddard was fully aware of the British Army's use of Congreve's explosive rockets a century or two previously, and of Chinese ones dating back to centuries earlier.
the montgolfiers didn't invent hot air!
Correct. Likewise the Wrights did not invent air, aerodynamics, wings, tailplanes, propellers internal combustion engines, and under-carriage. Furthermore, birds and insects have used wing warping for millions of years. In fact, once the IC engine had been invented, and was providing better power to weight ratios than other power sources, then Powered Controlled and Sustained flight was INEViTABLE, thanks to science and experiments by RAeS and others.
Exclude the Montgolfiers by that Criterion, and you logically exclude the Wrights!
I agree strongly with Cows getting bigger, I love AHN, I love good discussion and I am happy to learn new facts and even be proved wrong occasionally, but myopic nationalism and xenophobia spoil the discussion.
Last edited by joy ride; 17th Jun 2015 at 14:30.
myopic nationalism and xenophobia spoil the discussion.
abysmal subject ignorance Regarding the current exchange I think this is emphatically supported . For example regarding elementary topics , this individual is fully demonstrating his lack of knowledge of Frank Whittle's flying qualifications ( he was an R.A.F. pilot of course), zero comprehension of the established history of the P.51's origins ( U.K. purchasing etc.) and evident confusion regarding the actual chronology ( and reasons for) the various locations of the alleged Wright "Flyer" - seven years out regarding the U.K. residence history.
So perhaps we best take the good advice offered and not deign to "feed the troll".
It's a waste of time.
Last edited by Haraka; 18th Jun 2015 at 12:08.
Thanks for mentioning the RAeS joy ride. Can't say I was that familiar with the organisation, so forced to do a bit of research. Interesting that it was formed way back in 1866, and that it presents awards to anyone in the world who they deem worthy, the first Gold Medal being awarded to the Wright Brothers.
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I think you guys just don't get it.
I know the history of the P51 quite well, I know all about the mating of the merlin with the north american airframe. I understand how the purchasing commision was in need of airplanes and wanted north american to build the P40 on license and that North American offered them better! I am all for the special relationship that WC spoke between the US and England.
You didn't get it when I mentioned that without the P51 you might not have England. But then we tend to only understand what we want. You might want to re-read my post.
What the Wrights did was to put everything together and FIGURE OUT HOW TO OVERCOME WARP DRAG (we would call it adverse aileron yaw now a days) thus allowing coordinated turns. No one had figured that out until the Wrights.
AS to Rockets, anyone could make a simple solid fuel (gunpowder type) rocket. A liquid fueled rocket made history just west of boston, many years ago.
And those who speculate upon my heritage, I was born and raised in the USA. My grandparents on both sides came from greece, you know that country, Dadelus was the first to fly, right?
I think you should all go and watch, "those magnificient men in their flying machines" and try to feel much better .
But the Wrights invented the airplane
Lindbergh proved what it could do
And doolittle provided us a way to fly ''blind''.
pressurization, cookies, flight attendants,jet engines, hydraulics are all the nice things.
But flying could have been done without the nice things.
Mt Rushmore of Aviation, settled.
I know the history of the P51 quite well, I know all about the mating of the merlin with the north american airframe. I understand how the purchasing commision was in need of airplanes and wanted north american to build the P40 on license and that North American offered them better! I am all for the special relationship that WC spoke between the US and England.
You didn't get it when I mentioned that without the P51 you might not have England. But then we tend to only understand what we want. You might want to re-read my post.
What the Wrights did was to put everything together and FIGURE OUT HOW TO OVERCOME WARP DRAG (we would call it adverse aileron yaw now a days) thus allowing coordinated turns. No one had figured that out until the Wrights.
AS to Rockets, anyone could make a simple solid fuel (gunpowder type) rocket. A liquid fueled rocket made history just west of boston, many years ago.
And those who speculate upon my heritage, I was born and raised in the USA. My grandparents on both sides came from greece, you know that country, Dadelus was the first to fly, right?
I think you should all go and watch, "those magnificient men in their flying machines" and try to feel much better .
But the Wrights invented the airplane
Lindbergh proved what it could do
And doolittle provided us a way to fly ''blind''.
pressurization, cookies, flight attendants,jet engines, hydraulics are all the nice things.
But flying could have been done without the nice things.
Mt Rushmore of Aviation, settled.
Last edited by skyhighfallguy; 17th Jun 2015 at 19:46.
But the Wrights invented the airplane
The Wrights never claimed to have invented the airplane, or even the first airplane to fly. In their own words, they made the first sustained, powered, controlled flights. Their patent was for "new and useful improvements in Flying-Machines."
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There patent was worded in a way to protect the Wrights. I'm sorry it does not comport to your understanding.
and
there is a very nice book, called:
How We Invented the Airplane. An illustrated history. BY ORVILLE WRIGHT
Published, even listed with an ISBN 0-486-25662-6
It must ache you megan and others but there is the book. By the first flyer his own self.
CIP 87-33037
I'm glad you are all for doctoring history in your own way. It is amusing.
So thanks for all the good laughs folks. Just suck it up and motor on.
and
there is a very nice book, called:
How We Invented the Airplane. An illustrated history. BY ORVILLE WRIGHT
Published, even listed with an ISBN 0-486-25662-6
It must ache you megan and others but there is the book. By the first flyer his own self.
CIP 87-33037
I'm glad you are all for doctoring history in your own way. It is amusing.
So thanks for all the good laughs folks. Just suck it up and motor on.
There patent was worded in a way to protect the Wrights
By the first flyer his own self
Best suck it up and motor on lad.
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megan
if you have your copy of the aforementioned book, look on page 11 and read the first 8 words on the page.
unless you have actually read the book, or have it in your hands, you are just reading some review.
And an interesting tidbit is on page 12, footnote 1 in which courts acknowledged that the wrights had priority on any method for presenting the right and left wings at different angles. (aileron principle)
Care to read the book, or even prove you have it in your hands?
oh and the smithsonian:
http://airandspace.si.edu/exhibition...line/fly/1903/
if you have your copy of the aforementioned book, look on page 11 and read the first 8 words on the page.
unless you have actually read the book, or have it in your hands, you are just reading some review.
And an interesting tidbit is on page 12, footnote 1 in which courts acknowledged that the wrights had priority on any method for presenting the right and left wings at different angles. (aileron principle)
Care to read the book, or even prove you have it in your hands?
oh and the smithsonian:
http://airandspace.si.edu/exhibition...line/fly/1903/
Last edited by skyhighfallguy; 17th Jun 2015 at 23:41.
Sorry, my copy is Kindle - no page numbers, so you'll have to quote page 11.
The patents and courts do not say they invented the airplane, once again for the third time "new and useful improvements" was the patent, which was all about the means of control. A list of all their patents,
1. Flying Machine, Construction and Design of 1902 Glider (the "new and useful improvements"), Patent No. 821,393
2. Flying Machine, Automatic Stabilizer, Patent No. 1,075,533
3. Flying Machine, Yaw Control, Patent No. 987,662
4. Flying Machine, Vertical Rudders, Patent No. 1,122,348
5. Mechanism for Flexing the Rudder of a Flying Machine, Horizontal Rudder, Patent No. 908,929
6. Airplane, Split Flap, Patent No. 1.504,663
7. Toy, Type of toy in which and object was projected through the air and caused to be engaged and supported by a swinging bar, Patent No. 1,523,989
Everyone, including the Smithsonian, has jumped on the "they invented the airplane", and they can shout it from the roof tops for all it matters, because it's not the case, and the Brothers never claimed it to be the case. Just a little nationalism coming to the fore on their part.
The patents and courts do not say they invented the airplane, once again for the third time "new and useful improvements" was the patent, which was all about the means of control. A list of all their patents,
1. Flying Machine, Construction and Design of 1902 Glider (the "new and useful improvements"), Patent No. 821,393
2. Flying Machine, Automatic Stabilizer, Patent No. 1,075,533
3. Flying Machine, Yaw Control, Patent No. 987,662
4. Flying Machine, Vertical Rudders, Patent No. 1,122,348
5. Mechanism for Flexing the Rudder of a Flying Machine, Horizontal Rudder, Patent No. 908,929
6. Airplane, Split Flap, Patent No. 1.504,663
7. Toy, Type of toy in which and object was projected through the air and caused to be engaged and supported by a swinging bar, Patent No. 1,523,989
Everyone, including the Smithsonian, has jumped on the "they invented the airplane", and they can shout it from the roof tops for all it matters, because it's not the case, and the Brothers never claimed it to be the case. Just a little nationalism coming to the fore on their part.
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go to the part that says:
HOW WE INVENTED THE AIRPLANE BY ORVILLE WRIGHT
ok, who did invent the airplane?
by the way, the control mechanism patent was based on the 1902 glider and not the powered plane
did the british invent radar? no, radio waves have been bouncing off things for years , but we say they invented the device we call RADAR.
The smithsonian didn't have to say anything. They could be as stubborn as you. But they did say it.
the inclined plane, one of the first simple machines of man has been around for thousands of years
is that the invention of the air plane?
HOW WE INVENTED THE AIRPLANE BY ORVILLE WRIGHT
ok, who did invent the airplane?
by the way, the control mechanism patent was based on the 1902 glider and not the powered plane
did the british invent radar? no, radio waves have been bouncing off things for years , but we say they invented the device we call RADAR.
The smithsonian didn't have to say anything. They could be as stubborn as you. But they did say it.
the inclined plane, one of the first simple machines of man has been around for thousands of years
is that the invention of the air plane?
So perhaps we best take the good advice offered and not deign to "feed the troll".
It's a waste of time.
It's a waste of time.
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thanks for the kind comments. I'm no idiot. the wrights invented the airplane.
but you didn't answer my question about who did invent the plane if the wrights didn't? and why did the us govt form a way of paying the wrights royalties on their patent in an expedited way?
and why does every US airman certificate have pictures of the wright brothers and their plane?
yeah, some people on pprune are going to rewrite history to make themselves feel better.
but you didn't answer my question about who did invent the plane if the wrights didn't? and why did the us govt form a way of paying the wrights royalties on their patent in an expedited way?
and why does every US airman certificate have pictures of the wright brothers and their plane?
yeah, some people on pprune are going to rewrite history to make themselves feel better.