E.E Canberra Copilot seat

[Rebuilder]

I am restoring a former RAAF E.E Canberra Mk21, which I understand is very similar or the same as the British T4 model. I am in particular need of an example of the copilots seat/chair. I have the pilots seat which is a rigid Phenolic resin casting and all things point to the copilot seat being of the same material but with slightly different mounting points. Any help in locating said seat would be gratefully received.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I was doing something with a PR9 recently and IIRC, the pilot seat is an MB Mk.3 and the navigators seat a Mk.4 - both very pretty ergonomic nightmares, although obviously there's an element of tweaking quite often to a model to fit the aeroplane. I suspect that you are therefore dealing with two Mk.3s ?

Martin Baker still maintain good data on just about everything they ever did, so you might get some drawings and specifications out of them?

The other place to ask would be the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington: English Electric Canberra T4 they're people with a good reputation for preserving historical data and might, for example, have some maintenance manuals?

G

[lightningmate]

Rebuilder,

I have no specific knowledge of the RAAF Canberra Mk21. However, the operational RAF T4 was fitted with Martin Baker Ejection Seats for all crew members.

I have some recall that the very early development aircraft may, only may, have used something different along the lines of what you describe.

The RAF Canberra T4 was assessed as being difficult to ingress, and it should be made impossible A sentiment I wholeheartedly support.

lm

[603DX]

I am very wary of contradicting the statements above regarding the seats in RAF T4 trainers, as I am neither a pilot nor an aeronautical engineer, but I have a very specific memory of a flight in a T4 in 1957 which did NOT have ejection seats. There is an archived thread in this forum dated about Oct/Nov 2011 and titled Canberra Bomber, which covers this very subject in quite a few posts, (several of them by me), and quite a lively and informative discussion took place about the seating details. A very clear drawing posted by longeron illustrated the general arrangement of seats in a T4 without bang seats.

The conclusion seemed to be that some early T4s were in service without the Martin Baker bang seats that were fitted to later examples, and that the aircraft I flew in was probably one of those.

[redsetter]

All T.4s entered service with fixed seats for pilots, in absence of suitable ejection seats. Chance of escape was assessed as somewhat negligible. Ejection seats were retrofitted, entering service circa 1961.

[Rebuilder]

Many thanks, our aircraft definately has the two fixed pilot seats and the navigators ejection seat. The aircraft was modified in 1957 after a mid air incident that seriously damaged the wings and whilst the wings were being remanufactured the aircraft was converted to the two pilot configuration it reflew again in December 1958. As a point of interest our M21s were never converted back to the ejection seat arrangment.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Spot on! No "bang" seats in T4 until 1961, can't remember which month they started coming to 231 OCU (Bassingbourn) however. Not the most comfortable of mods.!

[603DX]

All T.4s entered service with fixed seats for pilots, in absence of suitable ejection seats. Chance of escape was assessed as somewhat negligible. Ejection seats were retrofitted, entering service circa 1961.

Seems to be a consensus on this question, redsetter. Regarding the rather important matter of getting out in an emergency, I had a distinct feeling at the start of my "air experience" flight in 1957, that if everything went for a ball of chalk, we were probably all doomed! The unfortunate pilot and navigator would have not only had to hurriedly detach themselves from their own seat harnesses, they would then have had to get rid of this "fumblefingers" schoolboy cadet (me!) who was totally blocking their escape through the access hatch, with the sliding seat in its forward position. Two chances: Zero, and Nil.

Despite those initial misgivings, I still went ahead with the trip, because at the tender age of 18, I was going to live forever, wasn't I? And the thrill of actually handling the controls of what was then a pretty hot aircraft made it an experience not to be missed, whatever the very remotely likely consequences might have been ...