Channel 4 Programme on Tirpitz Sinking
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Papa
Not so rushed that they forgot how to spell Tirpitz though.
Strategic relevance is not based on actual capability so much as perceived capability.
If we didn't know it was useless, we had to treat it as if it were useful.
Not so rushed that they forgot how to spell Tirpitz though.
Strategic relevance is not based on actual capability so much as perceived capability.
If we didn't know it was useless, we had to treat it as if it were useful.
Exactly, the perceived threat was there without doubt. What would have been more tragic would have been if the 109's/190's had got in amongst the Lancs and it subsequently turned out to be for nothing.
Just thought it could have been told better, especially since the author was involved.
Apologies for the spelling by the way.
Just thought it could have been told better, especially since the author was involved.
Apologies for the spelling by the way.
PD, I've no doubt that what you say is right, but hindsight is not really the point is it? This mission was incredibly dangerous and by rights should have ended in disaster, not for the Kriegsmarine, but for the Royal Air Force. That it didn't can be easily forgotten in the rightful pride that IX and 617 Sqns feel for the amazing feat that they pulled off (in equal measure!).
Perhaps though it is time to confront that mystery and ask why it was that the raid confronted no resistance save from the Tirpitz itself. Now, one could take the view that it is the opinion of one man in Andoya and of the Walt that used to employ him in his radar installation. I'm not sure if that is what you were implying, CR, as your last sentence was a little too obtuse for me to comprehend.
There was a dilemma though for the likes of Lt Vesna (sp?). He was seemingly a Norgephile, speaking the language fluently and writing post war to the local paper in explanation of his actions, and perhaps even an Anglophile. Yet the war had bypassed Norway which was under the command of a Reichskommissar bent on making Norway a centre of Nazi resistance, thanks to the considerable number of SS troops stationed there. For less fanatical Germans like the good Lt and his like minded comrades this was a disastrous prospect, and the sooner that the war was lost the better could have been their conclusion.
At any rate, if there be any truth in Patrick Bishop's contention then we must surely owe it to Lt Vesna to consider it, for if it be true then he was a very brave man, especially given the dreadful revenge wrought by Hitler after the June 1944 attempt on his life.
Perhaps though it is time to confront that mystery and ask why it was that the raid confronted no resistance save from the Tirpitz itself. Now, one could take the view that it is the opinion of one man in Andoya and of the Walt that used to employ him in his radar installation. I'm not sure if that is what you were implying, CR, as your last sentence was a little too obtuse for me to comprehend.
There was a dilemma though for the likes of Lt Vesna (sp?). He was seemingly a Norgephile, speaking the language fluently and writing post war to the local paper in explanation of his actions, and perhaps even an Anglophile. Yet the war had bypassed Norway which was under the command of a Reichskommissar bent on making Norway a centre of Nazi resistance, thanks to the considerable number of SS troops stationed there. For less fanatical Germans like the good Lt and his like minded comrades this was a disastrous prospect, and the sooner that the war was lost the better could have been their conclusion.
At any rate, if there be any truth in Patrick Bishop's contention then we must surely owe it to Lt Vesna to consider it, for if it be true then he was a very brave man, especially given the dreadful revenge wrought by Hitler after the June 1944 attempt on his life.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 31st Mar 2014 at 20:47.
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Perhaps just me - and the fact that ABTF was just on the tele - but I thought that the 109 pilot looked the spitting image of Dirk Bogarde!
Excellent programme.
Duncs
Excellent programme.
Duncs
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Yeahbut... My simple understanding is that although damaged beyond practical repair, with machinery thrown out of line etc. The British didn't know it and therefore, to them, Tirpitz still remained a "fleet in being". I have heard that the crew that hit her on the bows with a tallboy was not believed when they claimed the hit.
After an excellent landing etc...
After an excellent landing etc...
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Interesting programme
What surprised me is one of the veterans (sorry can't recall his name) flew spitfires in the Battle of Britain before then flying bombers.
Was it normal for such a change from single engine fighter to large multi engined bomber?
What surprised me is one of the veterans (sorry can't recall his name) flew spitfires in the Battle of Britain before then flying bombers.
Was it normal for such a change from single engine fighter to large multi engined bomber?
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It's an interesting point about our intelligence of the situation of Tirpitz. PRU activity, Enigma decrypts and Norwegian resistance reports kept us reasonably well informed on the German big ships. In addition the departure of the Admiral and his staff could have been noticed by signals intelligence.
Her being shifted to Tromso from further north must surely be considered a retreat as her purpose in Kaafjord (and nearly all German surface navy activity so far in Norway) was to interfere with the Russian convoys. Dredging work took place at her new berth in order to prevent the ship capsizing, which could have been noticed by the Norwegians and perhaps by the PRU. Furthermore I don't think Tirpitz was provided with any destroyer escorts in the vicinity which would suggest at least she wasn't ready for sea.
No matter, the deed had to be done.
Here's Tirpitz on the way to Tromso with a black/grey/white camouflage.
This picture comes from this site:
German Navy in World War 2 - Kriegsmarine | World War Photos
Her being shifted to Tromso from further north must surely be considered a retreat as her purpose in Kaafjord (and nearly all German surface navy activity so far in Norway) was to interfere with the Russian convoys. Dredging work took place at her new berth in order to prevent the ship capsizing, which could have been noticed by the Norwegians and perhaps by the PRU. Furthermore I don't think Tirpitz was provided with any destroyer escorts in the vicinity which would suggest at least she wasn't ready for sea.
No matter, the deed had to be done.
Here's Tirpitz on the way to Tromso with a black/grey/white camouflage.
This picture comes from this site:
German Navy in World War 2 - Kriegsmarine | World War Photos
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My simple understanding is that although damaged beyond practical repair, with machinery thrown out of line etc. The British didn't know it and therefore, to them, Tirpitz still remained a "fleet in being". I have heard that the crew that hit her on the bows with a tallboy was not believed when they claimed the hit.
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What surprised me is one of the veterans (sorry can't recall his name) flew spitfires in the Battle of Britain before then flying bombers.
Was it normal for such a change from single engine fighter to large multi engined bomber?
Was it normal for such a change from single engine fighter to large multi engined bomber?
He was a sergeant pilot on 616 Squadron when he flew during the Battle of Britain - and survived ditching in the North Sea in September 1940. He was posted to 92 Squadron the following month and spent some time in Rhodesia as an Instructor.
He was commissioned in May 1942, joined 617 Squadron in 1944 and promoted to Squadron Leader later in the same year.
In his own words:
'I believe fighter and bomber pilots were different types, not that everyone was given the choice. In my opinion ace fighter pilots are born not made although, of course, any pilot can be trained to be a reasonable fighter boy.
I discovered my temperament was more that of a bomber pilot. A fighter pilot is a loner and a good one is a natural aerobatic flyer - another term is 'split-arse' - and a natural deflective shot. A bomber pilot has responsibility for his crew and the need to get to the target and put his bombs on the right spot. It requires more precise flying over longer periods.'
I discovered my temperament was more that of a bomber pilot. A fighter pilot is a loner and a good one is a natural aerobatic flyer - another term is 'split-arse' - and a natural deflective shot. A bomber pilot has responsibility for his crew and the need to get to the target and put his bombs on the right spot. It requires more precise flying over longer periods.'
He was inspirational and impressive speaker in support of the Bomber Command Memorial, and had no time for what he called 'self-appointed armchair historians' who criticise Bomber Command ops:
"After the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, in which 43,000 civilians were killed and many more injured, Bomber Command began taking the air war from over the rooftops of London and other British cities into the skies over Germany.
Total war – and that is what we were forced into – is a brutal business, a total breakdown of civilisation, where you fight terror with terror or die."
Total war – and that is what we were forced into – is a brutal business, a total breakdown of civilisation, where you fight terror with terror or die."
I last saw him during lunch at the RAF Club following the 2013 Battle of Britain memorial service at Westminster Abbey. He was clearly very ill and, I'm told, knew it was the last time he'd see some of his old friends. He passed away about six weeks later.
Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund - A Battle of Britain pilot remembers
FL
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way back when
I was in the bar of the Auldgarth Inn after a days fishing and I got talking to a lad who was once a shepard up in the Cheviots. He said theres a Lanc and a B17 up there, crashed like. In the summer the peat dries out and the planes rise. In the wet they sink back.
I've heard the Lanc had bullet holes in it later identified as that of the .303 type. Was coming back on a raid from Norway but spanked into the big hill between there and its base.
Explain.
Gunners opened up on themselves? Mis-identified by RAF NF and shot down, or damaged and then in-directly shot down? Cook off from rounds? Just an average young tired wartime aircrew, who screwed up and who flew in?
All true? RIP.
Bomber Harris, rot in hell.
I've heard the Lanc had bullet holes in it later identified as that of the .303 type. Was coming back on a raid from Norway but spanked into the big hill between there and its base.
Explain.
Gunners opened up on themselves? Mis-identified by RAF NF and shot down, or damaged and then in-directly shot down? Cook off from rounds? Just an average young tired wartime aircrew, who screwed up and who flew in?
All true? RIP.
Bomber Harris, rot in hell.
Bomber Harris, rot in hell.
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Hangar
Re " Bomber Harris, rot in hell."
Didn't understand that in the context of this thread.
I know he generated controversy but care to explain ???
Re " Bomber Harris, rot in hell."
Didn't understand that in the context of this thread.
I know he generated controversy but care to explain ???
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Ah, you must be from the British Establishment!
Re " Bomber Harris, rot in hell."
Didn't understand that in the context of this thread.
Didn't understand that in the context of this thread.
When the famous 617 Squadron was disbanded he posted "We don't need squadrons of bleating crabs blethering about the old days!! Get up and get jobs in civvy street. Do you all good for a change."
Great quote about the crucial role of Bomber Command in post 31.
"After the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, in which 43,000 civilians were killed and many more injured, Bomber Command began taking the air war from over the rooftops of London and other British cities into the skies over Germany.
Total war – and that is what we were forced into – is a brutal business, a total breakdown of civilisation, where you fight terror with terror or die."
Total war – and that is what we were forced into – is a brutal business, a total breakdown of civilisation, where you fight terror with terror or die."
When the danger's over some folks like to rewrite history.
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Bronx
Thanks. I withdraw my question !
Inter service banter is one thing .............
listening to what my Grand mother (and mother) and the rest of the family went through, I have no qualms about the war being taken to Germany.
The Germans "shot up" my grand mother and Aunt in Croydon (I'm sure a pilot at 100 feet could tell a lady and a kid were not soldiers as my grandmother looked at the pilot as he flew past at tree top level- just before he got blown out of the sky by the Ack Ack gun at the end of the street !!!) and week after week had bombs, V1's and V2's fall on civilian areas so I don't blame them for doing likewise. I would.
To wake up in the morning to find the house just behind you had vanished, family included, all the windows of your house blown in, and as my mother said, the Fish tank glass shattered and the water and fish all over the floor. Yep, really going to win the war by targeting civilians, all it did was give plenty of people, especially my grand mother a pathological hatred of the Germans !
Thanks. I withdraw my question !
Inter service banter is one thing .............
listening to what my Grand mother (and mother) and the rest of the family went through, I have no qualms about the war being taken to Germany.
The Germans "shot up" my grand mother and Aunt in Croydon (I'm sure a pilot at 100 feet could tell a lady and a kid were not soldiers as my grandmother looked at the pilot as he flew past at tree top level- just before he got blown out of the sky by the Ack Ack gun at the end of the street !!!) and week after week had bombs, V1's and V2's fall on civilian areas so I don't blame them for doing likewise. I would.
To wake up in the morning to find the house just behind you had vanished, family included, all the windows of your house blown in, and as my mother said, the Fish tank glass shattered and the water and fish all over the floor. Yep, really going to win the war by targeting civilians, all it did was give plenty of people, especially my grand mother a pathological hatred of the Germans !
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It really annoys me when so called experts, and we're normally talking journalist or historians sit on their fat comfortable arses enjoying the comfortable life and freedoms that those serving during the war brought them, then berate all of the actions like the bombing policies of Harris or anything else that took place, but if one of those actions saved even a single life at home or in the services, it was worth it in my eyes.
I weep for the likes of those that suffered the death marches, punishment by the Japanese and Germans during the war to rid of us of the evil that existed, I would like to tear one of these hypocrites from their comfortable lives and throw them into the likes of a Burma prison camp. And let us see how long their views lasted.
I weep for the likes of those that suffered the death marches, punishment by the Japanese and Germans during the war to rid of us of the evil that existed, I would like to tear one of these hypocrites from their comfortable lives and throw them into the likes of a Burma prison camp. And let us see how long their views lasted.
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The Germans "shot up" my grand mother and Aunt in Croydon (I'm sure a pilot at 100 feet could tell a lady and a kid were not soldiers as my grandmother looked at the pilot as he flew past at tree top level
I ask because of a similar incident I recall. They might, just might, be related. Indeed, it would be astonishing if they were.
PPP
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PPRuNe Pop
Firstly, I saw you had posted and thought, "oh no, here comes another warning to cool it and another thread ban"
Secondly, I have posted about it on here before because a couple of people corrected me and said it couldn't have been a Stuka.
Re the incident, I can get my mother to ask her sister / my aunt what year.
I can tell you that I think they were walking up the street they live in and the German flew over the Ack Ack gun which was on the grassed area at the end of the street as my grand mother received a phone call to say "We got him for you".
To be confirmed but I think the street they lived in was Upfield St, off Addiscombe Road, Croydon. The surname of Granter. I think the house that collected the bomb behind / near them was in Fitzjames Avenue. I think the gun was located on the Shirley Park Golf course.
Now that is from memory so let me check the details !!!
BTW, in case any of you were wondering, the bullets went either side of my grand mother and her daughter and neither were injured (my grand mother hit the deck on top of her daughter) but she remembers looking and seeing the pilots face he was that low
Firstly, I saw you had posted and thought, "oh no, here comes another warning to cool it and another thread ban"
Secondly, I have posted about it on here before because a couple of people corrected me and said it couldn't have been a Stuka.
Re the incident, I can get my mother to ask her sister / my aunt what year.
I can tell you that I think they were walking up the street they live in and the German flew over the Ack Ack gun which was on the grassed area at the end of the street as my grand mother received a phone call to say "We got him for you".
To be confirmed but I think the street they lived in was Upfield St, off Addiscombe Road, Croydon. The surname of Granter. I think the house that collected the bomb behind / near them was in Fitzjames Avenue. I think the gun was located on the Shirley Park Golf course.
Now that is from memory so let me check the details !!!
BTW, in case any of you were wondering, the bullets went either side of my grand mother and her daughter and neither were injured (my grand mother hit the deck on top of her daughter) but she remembers looking and seeing the pilots face he was that low