Harrier cockpit
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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All right John; then who was it? BAC, Hawkers, Hawker Siddley or who?
Hawker Siddeley.
Attention to detail is important - as I am sure Eddie would agree
Paxing All Over The World
Great thread, thank you. Perhaps the high seat level of thw exhibition a/c was deliberate to make it easier for photos to be taken from ground level - showing the visitor? If the seat was at working height, they might not be visible?
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I think you may have the answer there, PAXboy. On my Brooklands visit I noticed a queue of young children were taking turns to sit in G-VTOL, helped by the volunteer guide. I confess that despite my mature years, I too wanted to try it out, but felt a bit embarrassed about it, so wandered off elsewhere.
Later, when the children had gone, I slipped back and was invited to take a turn by the same guide, who said he had seen me looking envious earlier. I think he had probably had the seat raised to its highest position for the youngsters, then returned it to a lower setting which suited me fine, and offered to record the scene for me on my camera. Possibly when Dr Jekyll took his turn recently, it had simply been left high after some youngsters?
Later, when the children had gone, I slipped back and was invited to take a turn by the same guide, who said he had seen me looking envious earlier. I think he had probably had the seat raised to its highest position for the youngsters, then returned it to a lower setting which suited me fine, and offered to record the scene for me on my camera. Possibly when Dr Jekyll took his turn recently, it had simply been left high after some youngsters?
Last edited by 603DX; 13th Feb 2013 at 10:53. Reason: Incorrect attribution of PPRuNer
John:
There was a time when I thought that a pedant was someone who looked after in-growing toe nails.
Then I discovered that my dear old mother was going to a gyrocopter to have her feet looked at.
But that was actually a malaprop which I had always thought had something to do with scaffolding.
At least I know that there are two "f"s in paraffin.
I will try to buck up but I suspect that it is too late.
By the way, I can remember reading about the Armstrong Whitworth Argosy in the "Flight" magazine before I joined the RAF. By the time I got on to the manufacturers course at Baginton, it had become the Whitworth Gloster Argosy and by the time I got on to my first squadron, it had become the Hawker Siddeley HS 660 Argosy.
I hope you can forgive me; Eddie won't!
There was a time when I thought that a pedant was someone who looked after in-growing toe nails.
Then I discovered that my dear old mother was going to a gyrocopter to have her feet looked at.
But that was actually a malaprop which I had always thought had something to do with scaffolding.
At least I know that there are two "f"s in paraffin.
I will try to buck up but I suspect that it is too late.
By the way, I can remember reading about the Armstrong Whitworth Argosy in the "Flight" magazine before I joined the RAF. By the time I got on to the manufacturers course at Baginton, it had become the Whitworth Gloster Argosy and by the time I got on to my first squadron, it had become the Hawker Siddeley HS 660 Argosy.
I hope you can forgive me; Eddie won't!
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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JW411
Nothing to forgive I assure you.
Spoke to Eddie this afternoon. He still tries to inflict his red pen on me ('cor he was/is good at that). We tried to work out who you might be from JW411 but could find nothing conclusive - although mid east transport ops were clearly the main focus. He is in good if slightly declining shape (as indeed I am too).
Nothing to forgive I assure you.
Spoke to Eddie this afternoon. He still tries to inflict his red pen on me ('cor he was/is good at that). We tried to work out who you might be from JW411 but could find nothing conclusive - although mid east transport ops were clearly the main focus. He is in good if slightly declining shape (as indeed I am too).
John:
Good to hear that you spoke to Eddie. I shall go and see him next month.
Anyway, my curiosity has got the better of me and I have been doing a bit of research into which Harrier accident caused the Sao Paulo Harrier to be grounded.
We left Brize on 09 September 73 and flew up to Wittering in XR364 to collect the "fighting" Harrier. It was loaded on to its cradle during the night and we left Wittering on 10 September and flew directly to Sal. After a night stop, we flew to Sao Paulo via Recife and so arrived on 11 September.
I have found five Harrier accidents in 1973 and the most likely candidate is:
06 September 73 GR3 XV750 20 Sqn Wildenrath "Engine cut, abandoned."
Was this the one where the compressor casing nuts went down the compressor?
I note that 20 Sqn lost three Harriers in two months in Germany. The other two were caused by bird strikes.
Good to hear that you spoke to Eddie. I shall go and see him next month.
Anyway, my curiosity has got the better of me and I have been doing a bit of research into which Harrier accident caused the Sao Paulo Harrier to be grounded.
We left Brize on 09 September 73 and flew up to Wittering in XR364 to collect the "fighting" Harrier. It was loaded on to its cradle during the night and we left Wittering on 10 September and flew directly to Sal. After a night stop, we flew to Sao Paulo via Recife and so arrived on 11 September.
I have found five Harrier accidents in 1973 and the most likely candidate is:
06 September 73 GR3 XV750 20 Sqn Wildenrath "Engine cut, abandoned."
Was this the one where the compressor casing nuts went down the compressor?
I note that 20 Sqn lost three Harriers in two months in Germany. The other two were caused by bird strikes.
As far as I know, no South American country ever bought the Harrier.
Certainly, if you had seen the large audience of expectant voyeurs at Sao Paulo (the biggest city in Brazil) watch the RAF rebuild most of their ground equipment, assemble a Harrier and then take it to bits again without the engine ever having been started would possibly have attracted a bit of a politically negative audience. (the population of Sao Paulo is around 11 million people).
Things might have been quite different if the Harrier had duly got airborne and done a decent display.
Certainly, if you had seen the large audience of expectant voyeurs at Sao Paulo (the biggest city in Brazil) watch the RAF rebuild most of their ground equipment, assemble a Harrier and then take it to bits again without the engine ever having been started would possibly have attracted a bit of a politically negative audience. (the population of Sao Paulo is around 11 million people).
Things might have been quite different if the Harrier had duly got airborne and done a decent display.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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JW411
My mind has a complete blank about RAF probs at Sao Paulo. I did not arrive there in G-VTOL until the evening of 14 Sept having been quite busy at Rio for several days so perhaps I just did not have the spare horsepower to take in the RAF doings and it sounds as if you had left before I arrived.
You are right that no South American country bought the Harrier. The Navies of Brazil and Argentina were keenest. Indeed a year or two earlier I had flown from the Argentine 25th De Mayo in a single seater when the ship was on its delivery voyage from Holland down the English Channel. As always traditional navy operators were staggered at the ease of flying Harrier to and from the deck, especially the way the aircraft was self contained and needed no ‘yellow gear’ (flight deck ground equipment). However our price was so much more than the second hand A-4s from the USN that they inevitably went with the A-4. Given what happened 10 years later perhaps things turned out for the best.
Two points stand out in my memory about the Sao Paolo display (the first of its kind in South America). At the end of the pre-display brief to a very impressive room full of international display folk from all over the place I realised I had not hoisted in the min display height. So during question time I asked what it was and was told by the briefer “Don’t hit the ground”. We Farnborough/Paris European type mates looked at each other and as we left decided we were going to use 50ft.
The other memory I have was later in the week when I was in our chalet and somebody stuck his head and said “Come and see this”. This was a lad in an aerobatic light aircraft (a Decathlon) who was going up and down the display runway doing rolls and getting lower and lower. Somebody said his slot had finished several minutes earlier but he was refusing ATC’s order to land. After watching a couple more passes I said that I thought he intended to commit suicide and I was not going to stay and watch the inevitable. Back in the chalet some minutes later I heard the expected sounds as he went in. Sad.
Sorry – I went off on one.
My mind has a complete blank about RAF probs at Sao Paulo. I did not arrive there in G-VTOL until the evening of 14 Sept having been quite busy at Rio for several days so perhaps I just did not have the spare horsepower to take in the RAF doings and it sounds as if you had left before I arrived.
You are right that no South American country bought the Harrier. The Navies of Brazil and Argentina were keenest. Indeed a year or two earlier I had flown from the Argentine 25th De Mayo in a single seater when the ship was on its delivery voyage from Holland down the English Channel. As always traditional navy operators were staggered at the ease of flying Harrier to and from the deck, especially the way the aircraft was self contained and needed no ‘yellow gear’ (flight deck ground equipment). However our price was so much more than the second hand A-4s from the USN that they inevitably went with the A-4. Given what happened 10 years later perhaps things turned out for the best.
Two points stand out in my memory about the Sao Paolo display (the first of its kind in South America). At the end of the pre-display brief to a very impressive room full of international display folk from all over the place I realised I had not hoisted in the min display height. So during question time I asked what it was and was told by the briefer “Don’t hit the ground”. We Farnborough/Paris European type mates looked at each other and as we left decided we were going to use 50ft.
The other memory I have was later in the week when I was in our chalet and somebody stuck his head and said “Come and see this”. This was a lad in an aerobatic light aircraft (a Decathlon) who was going up and down the display runway doing rolls and getting lower and lower. Somebody said his slot had finished several minutes earlier but he was refusing ATC’s order to land. After watching a couple more passes I said that I thought he intended to commit suicide and I was not going to stay and watch the inevitable. Back in the chalet some minutes later I heard the expected sounds as he went in. Sad.
Sorry – I went off on one.
Last edited by John Farley; 14th Feb 2013 at 16:30.
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I was stood about 4 ft from a Full Harrier ex RN with dummy rockets on wing pylons yesterday in Mid Cheshire, the many who owns it is an avid collector of all sorts of flying things, and it take pride of place in his factory Gardens almost a sort of gate Guardian but in Civvy surrounds.
Peter R-B
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Peter R-B
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Hi SSD
No secret, look for the Winsford MOT centre on Woodford Park, almost withing cricket ball throwing distance of the Cheshire Police HQ, the owner seems also to own most of the rest of the Industrial estate, so me thinks his hobby is spending some made money on trinkets of the heavier than Air type things, if you go there, talk to him he is also a Heli Pilot and has some really interesting engines fitted onto stands that are fully functioning and with auto starts all he has to do is pressurise the fuel systems and press the green buttons, I called in for a quick question but left about 1 hour later.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
No secret, look for the Winsford MOT centre on Woodford Park, almost withing cricket ball throwing distance of the Cheshire Police HQ, the owner seems also to own most of the rest of the Industrial estate, so me thinks his hobby is spending some made money on trinkets of the heavier than Air type things, if you go there, talk to him he is also a Heli Pilot and has some really interesting engines fitted onto stands that are fully functioning and with auto starts all he has to do is pressurise the fuel systems and press the green buttons, I called in for a quick question but left about 1 hour later.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Last edited by Peter-RB; 15th Feb 2013 at 15:16.
John:
I think we are talking somewhat at cross purposes. We took the Wittering Harrier to Sao Paulo Congonhas civil airport which is on a plateau in the middle of the city.
The Harrier was supposed to fly from Congonhas to Sao Jose dos Campos (where the air display was to be held) after assembly.
I think we are talking somewhat at cross purposes. We took the Wittering Harrier to Sao Paulo Congonhas civil airport which is on a plateau in the middle of the city.
The Harrier was supposed to fly from Congonhas to Sao Jose dos Campos (where the air display was to be held) after assembly.
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Thats the one in Cheshire, took me by suprise when I rounded the corner, to see one of the best A/C we Brits ever had, short sighted Politics and those who preach such sh 1 te got rid well before their sell by date.
Peter R-B
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Peter R-B
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Maybe it's stretching things a bit, but we might comfort ourselves a little with the thought that the 72 prematurely retired Harrier IIs sold to the USMC by the MoD in 2011 will still be helping 'to defend the free world' as a components source to keep their AV-8B Harrier II fleet operational.
After all, we are generally on the same side of the fence in situations requiring the deployment of these excellent machines. It's just a crying shame that they won't have British servicemen flying them ...
After all, we are generally on the same side of the fence in situations requiring the deployment of these excellent machines. It's just a crying shame that they won't have British servicemen flying them ...