Spitfires found in Burma
Join Date: May 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm rather surprised no-one has mentioned it, and it isn't an exact parallel, but there was a P38 Lightning recovered in the '90s from under 250 ft of ice in Greenland. It was unprotected and covered by an accumulation of snow that fell over the succeeding decades and compacted into ice. That was damaged, but not completely crushed, and is now restored and flying.
Aircraft | Glacier Girl |
If that can survive being buried 250ft down, then I'd have thought that the Spitfires, if still dismantled, crated and protected would have an equal chance. Of course, the ice acted to preserve the P38 and the environment in Burma won't be so benign - but that aspect of the preservation will depend on the quality of the original packaging.
As for restoration, if its possible to restore to flying condition a Spitfire that has been buried in salt water/sand for 40 years then I can't imagine that crated/preserved ones would present much of a problem.
About the Project | Spitfire I P9374
I don't know if they are there - I hope they are - but I think the pessimists might consider the examples above before saying its impossible. Either way, we should know soon.
Incidentally, there are still 5 more P38s buried there. Also a pair of B17s, but they didn't survive the crushing effect of the ice.
The lost squadron
.
Aircraft | Glacier Girl |
If that can survive being buried 250ft down, then I'd have thought that the Spitfires, if still dismantled, crated and protected would have an equal chance. Of course, the ice acted to preserve the P38 and the environment in Burma won't be so benign - but that aspect of the preservation will depend on the quality of the original packaging.
As for restoration, if its possible to restore to flying condition a Spitfire that has been buried in salt water/sand for 40 years then I can't imagine that crated/preserved ones would present much of a problem.
About the Project | Spitfire I P9374
I don't know if they are there - I hope they are - but I think the pessimists might consider the examples above before saying its impossible. Either way, we should know soon.
Incidentally, there are still 5 more P38s buried there. Also a pair of B17s, but they didn't survive the crushing effect of the ice.
The lost squadron
.
Last edited by pvmw; 6th Jan 2013 at 19:11.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: DORSET
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lanc restoration:Lancaster bomber to fly as tribute to a lost brother - Telegraph
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if its possible to restore to flying condition a Spitfire that has been buried in salt water/sand for 40 years
As for restoration, if its possible to restore to flying condition a Spitfire that has been buried in salt water/sand for 40 years then I can't imagine that crated/preserved ones would present much of a problem.
Edit: great minds think alike !
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 7th Jan 2013 at 07:00. Reason: great minds think alike !
Join Date: May 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you have the data plate and the drawings, it is legal to build a new aircraft around the data plate and put it into the air as "Restored".
As for corrosion/rot etc are concerned, if they were securely packed and protected then the corrosion may be limited. Have a look at the LSR car Babs, buried for 40 years under the sands of Pendine beach. Electrolytic corrosion had completely destroyed the aluminium body, but the rest of it was actually in remarkably good condition.
Pendine Sands
.
Last edited by pvmw; 7th Jan 2013 at 07:31.
Electrolytic corrosion had completely destroyed the aluminium body, but the rest of it was actually in remarkably good condition.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That wouldn't really be very good news if we were talking instead about an aircraft ...
I used to get the opportunity to race a pre-war 4 1/5 litre lagonda. That had been covered in army grease and buried in the Far East as the Japanese approached. The owner survived the war, and returned to dig it up - to find that termites had eaten everything digestible, but that the mechanics were still pristine. He has it re-bodied by a local boatbuilder working from a photo of a LeMans car. All considering, he did a good job.
Until they dig something up we are all guessing.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dataplate ~ VIN.
It is interesting that the commentry regarding Glacier Girl from the Airventure site states;
which perhaps explains why the restoration took so long. I saw the un-restored airframe and to say it was 'trashed' is to understate the meaning of trashed. I cannot remember a single panel which was not distorted or structural member not cracked. The lack of corrosion was very evident - but so was the damage.
Given the tropically conditions in Burma it will be interesting to see what state they are in (always presuming the very poor but very resourceful locals did not use them as raw materials within days of them being buried - if indeed they actually were buried.....)
It is interesting that the commentry regarding Glacier Girl from the Airventure site states;
Once the P-38 was located, they used a piece of equipment that resembled a top. It melted the ice by circulating hot water and pumping it through copper tubing coiled around the outside. The machine cut a 4-foot-wide hole, and they used it five times to enlarge the hole enough to remove the 7,000-pound center section of the plane.
But before that they had to free every piece of the plane from ice. They used a hot-water cannon with men going down the shafts using cables to disassemble the P-38 piece-by-piece before raising it to the surface.
Eventually, the plane and its pieces made it to project funder Roy Shoffner's hangar in Middlesboro, Kentucky, where restoration began in November 1992. "The more we took apart, the more we realized things were broken," he said. "In the end we had one piece left and a big pile of junk."
But because the plane was the only one of its kind they salvaged as much as possible, eventually salvaging 80 percent of the P-38F.
But before that they had to free every piece of the plane from ice. They used a hot-water cannon with men going down the shafts using cables to disassemble the P-38 piece-by-piece before raising it to the surface.
Eventually, the plane and its pieces made it to project funder Roy Shoffner's hangar in Middlesboro, Kentucky, where restoration began in November 1992. "The more we took apart, the more we realized things were broken," he said. "In the end we had one piece left and a big pile of junk."
But because the plane was the only one of its kind they salvaged as much as possible, eventually salvaging 80 percent of the P-38F.
Given the tropically conditions in Burma it will be interesting to see what state they are in (always presuming the very poor but very resourceful locals did not use them as raw materials within days of them being buried - if indeed they actually were buried.....)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Given that nowadays it seems that all you need is a surviving manufacturer's ID plate, and you can "restore" an aircraft around it, you are technically correct.
A data plate is not a pre-requisite to rebuild a Spitfire. The CAA require a provenance and ownership trail to an RAF serial number identity.
All that the construction number data plates give you are details of approximately where in the production cycle the assembly was made. For purposes of the CAA construction number requirement the cockpit plate, if there is one still attached, is usually quoted but equally the plate from the Frame 5 firewall sub assembly will suffice. The RAF ID is not stamped on either of these plates and the general digits thereon are basically meaningless to but a few aficionados
The 'platinum' plate is in the wing bolt area should over size bolts have been fitted for this has both the cockpit c/n and the RAF serial stamped on and has been the key to putting a number of RAF identities on to otherwise orphan Spitfires.
Mark
Given that nowadays it seems that all you need is a surviving manufacturer's ID plate, and you can "restore" an aircraft around it, you are technically correct.
A data plate is not a pre-requisite to rebuild a Spitfire. The CAA require a provenance and ownership trail to an RAF serial number identity.
All that the construction number data plates give you are details of approximately where in the production cycle the assembly was made. For purposes of the CAA construction number requirement the cockpit plate, if there is one still attached, is usually quoted but equally the plate from the Frame 5 firewall sub assembly will suffice. The RAF ID is not stamped on either of these plates and the general digits thereon are basically meaningless to but a few aficionados
The 'platinum' plate is in the wing bolt area should over size bolts have been fitted for this has both the cockpit c/n and the RAF serial stamped on and has been the key to putting a number of RAF identities on to otherwise orphan Spitfires.
Mark
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tr_no 688
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they are even there, the airframes will be largely scrap, anyone who thinks they will be protected by tar or whatnot and emerge in "great condition" needs their head examined
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Surrey Hills
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just looked at Google Earth area at Mingaladon Airport where someone posted a possible site for the Spitfires. Just a few yards away is a pond that is full of water and I note the airfield is surrounded with small ponds. Wet as hell just a few feet down - let alone 30 or 40.........
Also if Mosquitoes delaminated easily in the tropics then with termites and such and 70 Monsoons and thin UK plywood cases I wonder if this is just a case of an over-enthusiastic aviation memorabilia junkie's final quest......
Not too long before we hear the results.
Also if Mosquitoes delaminated easily in the tropics then with termites and such and 70 Monsoons and thin UK plywood cases I wonder if this is just a case of an over-enthusiastic aviation memorabilia junkie's final quest......
Not too long before we hear the results.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously you are both very well informed. 
Here is a shot of a Spitfire being pulled out of wet claggy clay in November 2005. The roundel and aluminium are pristine.
You might think that was water in the bottom of the hole....no, it's aviation fuel.
Mark
Here is a shot of a Spitfire being pulled out of wet claggy clay in November 2005. The roundel and aluminium are pristine.
You might think that was water in the bottom of the hole....no, it's aviation fuel.
Mark
Update by Adam Booth, Imperial College London
A story of Spitfires? Archaeological geophysics in Burma (Part 2) | GeoLog
A story of Spitfires? Archaeological geophysics in Burma (Part 2) | GeoLog
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,617
Received 293 Likes
on
161 Posts
Here is a shot of a Spitfire
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,617
Received 293 Likes
on
161 Posts
The more the merrier!
Excellent work by Matt Poole at following links. Overlay of 1940s photo recce imagery of Mingaladon onto Google Earth.
Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Spitfires From Burma (Merged thread)
Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Spitfires From Burma (Merged thread)
Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Spitfires From Burma (Merged thread)
Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Spitfires From Burma (Merged thread)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see the drip feed of information has started.
"Full of muddy water"
"It will take some time to pump the water out ... but I do expect all aircraft to be in very good condition," Mr Cundall said from Rangoon"
Burma Spitfire search finds water-filled crate that may contain plane - Telegraph
Why don't they just wait until they have dug the thing up and
hauled it to the surface !
"Full of muddy water"
"It will take some time to pump the water out ... but I do expect all aircraft to be in very good condition," Mr Cundall said from Rangoon"
Burma Spitfire search finds water-filled crate that may contain plane - Telegraph
Why don't they just wait until they have dug the thing up and
hauled it to the surface !
