The Battle of Britain to be Re-Made?
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If ever one needed an example of overkill Computer Graphics and impossible camera/aircraft moves that even the small brained would know was a fake then Red Tails is the movie!
I used to work for Lucas at ILM and I can't believe he has let Red Tails reach General Release. All that money and the end result is awful.
I hope they don't make another Battle of Britain if it is going to use Computer Graphics for the flying sequences.
I gather Red Tails had problems with the Director and Lucas took over. Lots of rewrites and it looks like Political Correctness has been writ large.
I am sure any remaining Red Tail pilots will squirm when they see the movie.
I used to work for Lucas at ILM and I can't believe he has let Red Tails reach General Release. All that money and the end result is awful.
I hope they don't make another Battle of Britain if it is going to use Computer Graphics for the flying sequences.
I gather Red Tails had problems with the Director and Lucas took over. Lots of rewrites and it looks like Political Correctness has been writ large.
I am sure any remaining Red Tail pilots will squirm when they see the movie.
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I hope he tells it well!! But it's a great idea because too many of todays youngsters have not even heard of it!
FODPlod may be familiar with this but for those who aren't... .
In 1974 an exercise was held at the Staff College, Sandhurst using a scenario based on the known plans of each side, plus previously unpublished Admiralty weather records for September 1940. The full text is in 'Sealion' by Richard Cox.
'Each side (played by British and German officers respectively) was based in a command room, and the actual moves plotted on a scale model of SE England constructed at the School of Infantry.
The panel of umpires included Adolf Galland, Admiral Friedrich Ruge, Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris, Rear Admiral Edward Gueritz, General Heinz Trettner and Major General Glyn Gilbert. The main problems the Germans face are that: a) the Luftwaffe has not yet won air supremacy; b) the possible invasion dates are constrained by the weather and tides (for a high water attack) and c) it has taken until late September to assemble the necessary shipping.
22nd September - morning. The first wave of a planned 330,000 men hit the beaches at dawn. Elements of 9 divisions landed between Folkestone and Rottingdean (near Brighton). In addition 7th FJ Div landed at Lympne to take the airfield. The invasion fleet suffered minor losses from MTBs during the night crossing, but the RN had already lost one CA and three DDs sunk, with one CA and two DDs damaged, whilst sinking three German DDs. Within hours of the landings, which overwhelmed the beach defenders, reserve formations were despatched to Kent. Although there were 25 divisions in the UK, only 17 were fully equipped, and only three were based in Kent, however the defence plan relied on the use of mobile reserves and armoured and mechanised brigades were committed as soon as the main landings were identified. Meanwhile the air battle raged, the Luftwaffe flew 1200 fighter and 800 bomber sorties before 1200 hrs. The RAF even threw in training planes hastily armed with bombs, but the Luftwaffe were already having problems with their short ranged Me 109s despite cramming as many as possible into the Pas de Calais.
22nd - 23rd September. The Germans had still not captured a major port, although they started driving for Folkestone. Shipping unloading on the beaches suffered heavy losses from RAF bombing raids and then further losses at their ports in France. The U-Boats, Luftwaffe and few surface ships had lost contact with the RN, but then a cruiser squadron with supporting DDs entered the Channel narrows and had to run the gauntlet of long range coastal guns, E-Boats and 50 Stukas. Two CAs were sunk and one damaged. However a diversionary German naval sortie from Norway was completely destroyed and other sorties by MTBS and DDs inflicted losses on the shipping milling about in the Channel. German shipping losses on the first day amounted to over 25% of their invasion fleet, especially the barges, which proved desperately unseaworthy.
23rd Sept dawn - 1400 hrs. The RAF had lost 237 planes out 1048 (167 fighters and 70 bombers), and the navy had suffered enough losses such that it was keeping its BBs and CVs back, but large forces of DDs and CAs were massing. Air recon showed a German build up in Cherbourg and forces were diverted to the South West. The German Navy were despondant about their losses, especially as the loss of barges was seriously dislocating domestic industry. The Army and Airforce commanders were jubilant however, and preperations for the transfer of the next echelon continued along with the air transport of 22nd Div, despite Luftwaffe losses of 165 fighters and 168 bombers. Out of only 732 fighters and 724 bombers these were heavy losses. Both sides overestimated losses inflicted by 50%. The 22nd Div airlanded successfully at Lympne, although long range artillery fire directed by a stay-behind commando group interdicted the runways. The first British counterattacks by 42nd Div supported by an armoured brigade halted the German 34th Div in its drive on Hastings. 7th Panzer Div was having difficulty with extensive anti-tank obstacles and assault teams armed with stickybombs etc. Meanwhile an Australian Div had retaken Newhaven (the only German held port), however the New Zealand Div arrived at Folkestone only to be attacked in the rear by 22nd Airlanding Div. The division fell back on Dover having lost 35% casualties.
Sep 23rd 1400 - 1900 hrs. Throughout the day the Luftwaffe put up a maximum effort, with 1500 fighter and 460 bomber sorties, but the RAF persisted in attacks on shipping and airfields. Much of this effort was directed for ground support and air resupply, despite Adm Raeders request for more aircover over the Channel. The Home Fleet had pulled out of air range however, leaving the fight in the hands of 57 DDs and 17 CAs plus MTBs. The Germans could put very little surface strength against this. Waves of DDs and CAs entered the Channel, and although two were sunk by U-Boats, they sank one U-Boat in return and did not stop. The German flotilla at Le Havre put to sea (3 DD, 14 E-Boats) and at dusk intercepted the British, but were wiped out, losing all their DDs and 7 E-Boats. The Germans now had 10 divisions ashore, but in many cases these were incomplete and waiting for their second echelon to arrive that night. The weather was unsuitable for the barges however, and the decision to sail was referred up the chain of command.
23rd Sep 1900 - Sep 24th dawn. The Fuhrer Conference held at 1800 broke out into bitter inter-service rivalry - the Army wanted their second echelon sent, and the navy protesting that the weather was unsuitable, and the latest naval defeat rendered the Channel indefensible without air support. Goring countered this by saying it could only be done by stopping the terror bombing of London, which in turn Hitler vetoed. The fleet was ordered to stand by. The RAF meanwhile had lost 97 more fighters leaving only 440. The airfields of 11 Group were cratered ruins, and once more the threat of collapse, which had receded in early September, was looming. The Luftwaffe had lost another 71 fighters and 142 bombers. Again both sides overestimated losses inflicted, even after allowing for inflated figures. On the ground the Germans made good progress towards Dover and towards Canterbury, however they suffered reverses around Newhaven when the 45th Div and Australians attacked. At 2150 Hitler decided to launch the second wave, but only the short crossing from Calais and Dunkirk. By the time the order reached the ports, the second wave could not possibly arrive before dawn. The 6th and 8th divisions at Newhaven, supplied from Le Havre, would not be reinforced at all.
Sep 24th dawn - Sep 28th. The German fleet set sail, the weather calmed, and U-Boats, E-Boats and fighters covered them. However at daylight 5th destroyer flotilla found the barges still 10 miles off the coast and tore them to shreds. The Luftwaffe in turn committed all its remaining bombers, and the RAF responded with 19 squadrons of fighters. The Germans disabled two CAs and four DDs, but 65% of the barges were sunk. The faster steamers broke away and headed for Folkestone, but the port had been so badly damaged that they could only unload two at a time. The failure on the crossing meant that the German situation became desperate. The divisions had sufficient ammunition for 2 to 7 days more fighting, but without extra men and equipment could not extend the bridgehead. Hitler ordered the deployment on reserve units to Poland and the Germans began preparations for an evacuation as further British attacks hemmed them in tighter. Fast steamers and car ferries were assembled for evacuation via Rye and Folkestone. Of 90,000 troops who landed on 22nd september, only 15,400 returned to France, the rest were killed or captured.'
Dons tin hat....
In 1974 an exercise was held at the Staff College, Sandhurst using a scenario based on the known plans of each side, plus previously unpublished Admiralty weather records for September 1940. The full text is in 'Sealion' by Richard Cox.
'Each side (played by British and German officers respectively) was based in a command room, and the actual moves plotted on a scale model of SE England constructed at the School of Infantry.
The panel of umpires included Adolf Galland, Admiral Friedrich Ruge, Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris, Rear Admiral Edward Gueritz, General Heinz Trettner and Major General Glyn Gilbert. The main problems the Germans face are that: a) the Luftwaffe has not yet won air supremacy; b) the possible invasion dates are constrained by the weather and tides (for a high water attack) and c) it has taken until late September to assemble the necessary shipping.
22nd September - morning. The first wave of a planned 330,000 men hit the beaches at dawn. Elements of 9 divisions landed between Folkestone and Rottingdean (near Brighton). In addition 7th FJ Div landed at Lympne to take the airfield. The invasion fleet suffered minor losses from MTBs during the night crossing, but the RN had already lost one CA and three DDs sunk, with one CA and two DDs damaged, whilst sinking three German DDs. Within hours of the landings, which overwhelmed the beach defenders, reserve formations were despatched to Kent. Although there were 25 divisions in the UK, only 17 were fully equipped, and only three were based in Kent, however the defence plan relied on the use of mobile reserves and armoured and mechanised brigades were committed as soon as the main landings were identified. Meanwhile the air battle raged, the Luftwaffe flew 1200 fighter and 800 bomber sorties before 1200 hrs. The RAF even threw in training planes hastily armed with bombs, but the Luftwaffe were already having problems with their short ranged Me 109s despite cramming as many as possible into the Pas de Calais.
22nd - 23rd September. The Germans had still not captured a major port, although they started driving for Folkestone. Shipping unloading on the beaches suffered heavy losses from RAF bombing raids and then further losses at their ports in France. The U-Boats, Luftwaffe and few surface ships had lost contact with the RN, but then a cruiser squadron with supporting DDs entered the Channel narrows and had to run the gauntlet of long range coastal guns, E-Boats and 50 Stukas. Two CAs were sunk and one damaged. However a diversionary German naval sortie from Norway was completely destroyed and other sorties by MTBS and DDs inflicted losses on the shipping milling about in the Channel. German shipping losses on the first day amounted to over 25% of their invasion fleet, especially the barges, which proved desperately unseaworthy.
23rd Sept dawn - 1400 hrs. The RAF had lost 237 planes out 1048 (167 fighters and 70 bombers), and the navy had suffered enough losses such that it was keeping its BBs and CVs back, but large forces of DDs and CAs were massing. Air recon showed a German build up in Cherbourg and forces were diverted to the South West. The German Navy were despondant about their losses, especially as the loss of barges was seriously dislocating domestic industry. The Army and Airforce commanders were jubilant however, and preperations for the transfer of the next echelon continued along with the air transport of 22nd Div, despite Luftwaffe losses of 165 fighters and 168 bombers. Out of only 732 fighters and 724 bombers these were heavy losses. Both sides overestimated losses inflicted by 50%. The 22nd Div airlanded successfully at Lympne, although long range artillery fire directed by a stay-behind commando group interdicted the runways. The first British counterattacks by 42nd Div supported by an armoured brigade halted the German 34th Div in its drive on Hastings. 7th Panzer Div was having difficulty with extensive anti-tank obstacles and assault teams armed with stickybombs etc. Meanwhile an Australian Div had retaken Newhaven (the only German held port), however the New Zealand Div arrived at Folkestone only to be attacked in the rear by 22nd Airlanding Div. The division fell back on Dover having lost 35% casualties.
Sep 23rd 1400 - 1900 hrs. Throughout the day the Luftwaffe put up a maximum effort, with 1500 fighter and 460 bomber sorties, but the RAF persisted in attacks on shipping and airfields. Much of this effort was directed for ground support and air resupply, despite Adm Raeders request for more aircover over the Channel. The Home Fleet had pulled out of air range however, leaving the fight in the hands of 57 DDs and 17 CAs plus MTBs. The Germans could put very little surface strength against this. Waves of DDs and CAs entered the Channel, and although two were sunk by U-Boats, they sank one U-Boat in return and did not stop. The German flotilla at Le Havre put to sea (3 DD, 14 E-Boats) and at dusk intercepted the British, but were wiped out, losing all their DDs and 7 E-Boats. The Germans now had 10 divisions ashore, but in many cases these were incomplete and waiting for their second echelon to arrive that night. The weather was unsuitable for the barges however, and the decision to sail was referred up the chain of command.
23rd Sep 1900 - Sep 24th dawn. The Fuhrer Conference held at 1800 broke out into bitter inter-service rivalry - the Army wanted their second echelon sent, and the navy protesting that the weather was unsuitable, and the latest naval defeat rendered the Channel indefensible without air support. Goring countered this by saying it could only be done by stopping the terror bombing of London, which in turn Hitler vetoed. The fleet was ordered to stand by. The RAF meanwhile had lost 97 more fighters leaving only 440. The airfields of 11 Group were cratered ruins, and once more the threat of collapse, which had receded in early September, was looming. The Luftwaffe had lost another 71 fighters and 142 bombers. Again both sides overestimated losses inflicted, even after allowing for inflated figures. On the ground the Germans made good progress towards Dover and towards Canterbury, however they suffered reverses around Newhaven when the 45th Div and Australians attacked. At 2150 Hitler decided to launch the second wave, but only the short crossing from Calais and Dunkirk. By the time the order reached the ports, the second wave could not possibly arrive before dawn. The 6th and 8th divisions at Newhaven, supplied from Le Havre, would not be reinforced at all.
Sep 24th dawn - Sep 28th. The German fleet set sail, the weather calmed, and U-Boats, E-Boats and fighters covered them. However at daylight 5th destroyer flotilla found the barges still 10 miles off the coast and tore them to shreds. The Luftwaffe in turn committed all its remaining bombers, and the RAF responded with 19 squadrons of fighters. The Germans disabled two CAs and four DDs, but 65% of the barges were sunk. The faster steamers broke away and headed for Folkestone, but the port had been so badly damaged that they could only unload two at a time. The failure on the crossing meant that the German situation became desperate. The divisions had sufficient ammunition for 2 to 7 days more fighting, but without extra men and equipment could not extend the bridgehead. Hitler ordered the deployment on reserve units to Poland and the Germans began preparations for an evacuation as further British attacks hemmed them in tighter. Fast steamers and car ferries were assembled for evacuation via Rye and Folkestone. Of 90,000 troops who landed on 22nd september, only 15,400 returned to France, the rest were killed or captured.'
Dons tin hat....
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Then so is having it won by the Spitfire is probably pushing things a bit. Did not Hurricanes shoot down something like twice as many German aircraft as the Spitfire.
I fear the use of CG would be inevitable. Even for the 1969 film – as you all know – the only "German" combat aircraft available, IIRC, were Bf-109s and He-111s. Because they were all Spanish, their Merlin engines stuck out like sore thumbs; visually and aurally.
Although CG is fairly expensive, I believe, because of the cost of designing and rendering frame by frame, it must be vastly cheaper than flying fleets of vintage aeroplanes. So do the producers of films like Red Tails employ visualisers with at least some knowledge of dynamics, if not aerodynamics? Or, if the animal doesn't exist, suitable people to advise the visualisers? Some of the sequences look little better than the old method of running small models at high speed along wires (as in parts of 633 Squadron).
Another point is that any perspective which puts the observer (i.e., the notional cameraman) in mid-air unsupported and/or in untenable proximity to the action destroys the illusion. You need to feel that you are there, and able to walk (or fly) away afterwards. Or am I just being old-fashioned?
BTW, NotGettingAnyYounger, the first and last of your Mosquito sequences look pretty good on my outdated PC. Are they CG?
Although CG is fairly expensive, I believe, because of the cost of designing and rendering frame by frame, it must be vastly cheaper than flying fleets of vintage aeroplanes. So do the producers of films like Red Tails employ visualisers with at least some knowledge of dynamics, if not aerodynamics? Or, if the animal doesn't exist, suitable people to advise the visualisers? Some of the sequences look little better than the old method of running small models at high speed along wires (as in parts of 633 Squadron).
Another point is that any perspective which puts the observer (i.e., the notional cameraman) in mid-air unsupported and/or in untenable proximity to the action destroys the illusion. You need to feel that you are there, and able to walk (or fly) away afterwards. Or am I just being old-fashioned?
BTW, NotGettingAnyYounger, the first and last of your Mosquito sequences look pretty good on my outdated PC. Are they CG?
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Chris Scott said…...
"BTW, NotGettingAnyYounger, the first and last of your Mosquito sequences look pretty good on my outdated PC. Are they CG?"
I am pretty sure they originated in Japan. Some 5 or so years ago.
The new Red Tails movie from LucasFilm has CGI that is pants compared to this stuff!
The logistics of getting real aircraft for a new version of TBoB means it will have to be CGI but as far removed from the Red Tails ILM failure as possible!
Google Tochy Suppon
He is the Japanese CGI artist who did "Merlin" In 2008 or thereabouts.
"BTW, NotGettingAnyYounger, the first and last of your Mosquito sequences look pretty good on my outdated PC. Are they CG?"
I am pretty sure they originated in Japan. Some 5 or so years ago.
The new Red Tails movie from LucasFilm has CGI that is pants compared to this stuff!
The logistics of getting real aircraft for a new version of TBoB means it will have to be CGI but as far removed from the Red Tails ILM failure as possible!
Google Tochy Suppon
He is the Japanese CGI artist who did "Merlin" In 2008 or thereabouts.
Last edited by aviate1138; 6th Oct 2011 at 08:53. Reason: added cgi info
Hi aviate1138,
Yes, have found it, and viewed several more, on his website:
‚·‚Á‚Û‚ñ
My present equipment is so lousy that I'm having to view rail-ticket-sized images, but I'm getting the impression that he has avoided making things look unnaturally sharp? The dynamics look good to me. He seems to know how an aircraft flies. In the landing sequence of the Mosquito, for example, I liked the subtleness of de-crab in the flare.
Yes, have found it, and viewed several more, on his website:
‚·‚Á‚Û‚ñ
My present equipment is so lousy that I'm having to view rail-ticket-sized images, but I'm getting the impression that he has avoided making things look unnaturally sharp? The dynamics look good to me. He seems to know how an aircraft flies. In the landing sequence of the Mosquito, for example, I liked the subtleness of de-crab in the flare.
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I fear the use of CG would be inevitable.
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Resolution is one of those things that can make or break a shot. High res takes a lot more time and effort but for the big screen it has to be high.
Here are two shots by a Canadian artist, Dan Meyer [ some years ago now] who knows what he is doing.
So does Tochy Suppon [or is it Suppon Tochy?] The deliberate Spit mistake is the 4 blade prop.
Here are two shots by a Canadian artist, Dan Meyer [ some years ago now] who knows what he is doing.
So does Tochy Suppon [or is it Suppon Tochy?] The deliberate Spit mistake is the 4 blade prop.
Antiquated in design Hurricane
OH Dear those poor chaps in France must have felt so fed up flying the Hurricane;Cobber Kain only managed 17 victories flying the type and that was by June 1940.
Yes, quite, POBJOY.
There should be loads of Hurricanes in a new film, which means - sadly - CGI.
A sub-plot of how one of the foreign pilots got to England to fly them might be interesting.
There should be loads of Hurricanes in a new film, which means - sadly - CGI.
A sub-plot of how one of the foreign pilots got to England to fly them might be interesting.
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Apart from the pilots [and the mixture of countries/races/ranks that were involved] I would hope the massive foresight of Dowding, the brilliance of Park's tactics and the shameful manoeuvrings of Leigh-Mallory and Sholto Douglas to gain power/ hide mistakes.
Also after the final triumph the dismissal/removal of Park and Dowding needs exposing.
I look forward to an accurate script based on fact without Americanised movie licence.
Onward and upward……..
Also after the final triumph the dismissal/removal of Park and Dowding needs exposing.
I look forward to an accurate script based on fact without Americanised movie licence.
Onward and upward……..
Last edited by aviate1138; 7th Oct 2011 at 07:07. Reason: spelling!
Noyade's Air Force
The logistics of getting real aircraft for a new version of TBoB means it will have to be CGI
My first challenge is to find a He-111 equivalent. Best I've come up with so far is some sort of Tora Tora Tora dice and slice with the DC-3...
Whatdoyathink?
Next challenge is the Dornier Do-17. But I have an idea...
Not sure how many IA-35s Argentina has left, but I'm sure they'll sell...?
Next challenge, fighters.
fighters.
Last edited by Noyade; 18th Oct 2011 at 22:45. Reason: Slowly building the BoB movie air force...
Shortly before T.O.M Sopwith died, the BBC News showed him at his home in Hampshire during a birthday celebration. He was esentially blind by this time, but when a Spitfire did a flypast in salute, his face lit up as he recognised the sound of the Merlin.
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I dunno - we're almost getting there with CGI....
Bit more work and...?
However given that the writer/director? is the same as The Departed, does that mean that Sailor Malan will be shot in the head in a lift after infiltrating the Luftwaffe???
Bit more work and...?
However given that the writer/director? is the same as The Departed, does that mean that Sailor Malan will be shot in the head in a lift after infiltrating the Luftwaffe???
