What airliner type, please?
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What airliner type, please?
Can anyone please tell me the aircraft-type, and approximate era (pre-39-45, or post-war) of this photo.
Marbles
Last edited by Marbles; 15th May 2011 at 23:22. Reason: Making photo work!
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Fokker F.36 The sole Fokker F.36 made its first flight on 22 June 1934. Operated on European routes by KLM from March 1935, it was sold in 1939 to Scottish Aviation of Prestwick and was flown from there as a crew and navigational trainer until scrapped in 1940.
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Thank you gentlemen. I had thought perhaps FXXII, but Wikipedia has only a rear-quarter view of a Swedish example, which was far from indicative of the sharp(er) end.
The important thing, for placing it in context, is that it was pre-1939.
The important thing, for placing it in context, is that it was pre-1939.
I reckon it is an Fokker XXII. Scottish Airlines started the war with two of them plus a Fokker XXXVI. The three aircraft were impressed into military service and used as flying classrooms for training Observers.
The aircraft were bought from KLM.
F XXII PH-AJR became G-AFXR and was impressed as HM159. This aircraft caught fire over Loch Tarbert and crashed on 03.07.43. I can remember being told as a lad that a cigarette end was involved.
F XXII PH-AJP became G-AFZP and was impressed as HM160. This aircraft survived the war and was the favourite of Gp Capt McIntyre. When I was a little lad she would fly in the summer months between Prestwick and the IOM.
The noise on take-off was pretty spectacular. (Can you imagine four T-6 Harvards in formation). She was eventually broken up in 1952 (which broke my heart).
F XXXVI PH-AJA became G-AFZR and was impressed as HM161. This aircraft crashed on take-off from Runway 26 at Prestwick on 21.05.40. I believe the wreckage ended up in the Pow Burn just off the end.
I shall now go and take my anorak off!
The aircraft were bought from KLM.
F XXII PH-AJR became G-AFXR and was impressed as HM159. This aircraft caught fire over Loch Tarbert and crashed on 03.07.43. I can remember being told as a lad that a cigarette end was involved.
F XXII PH-AJP became G-AFZP and was impressed as HM160. This aircraft survived the war and was the favourite of Gp Capt McIntyre. When I was a little lad she would fly in the summer months between Prestwick and the IOM.
The noise on take-off was pretty spectacular. (Can you imagine four T-6 Harvards in formation). She was eventually broken up in 1952 (which broke my heart).
F XXXVI PH-AJA became G-AFZR and was impressed as HM161. This aircraft crashed on take-off from Runway 26 at Prestwick on 21.05.40. I believe the wreckage ended up in the Pow Burn just off the end.
I shall now go and take my anorak off!
Another hint would've been the props. The F.XXXVI had three-bladers while the F.XXIIs all had two-bladers. The last photo shows the wing of an F.XXII behind the F.XXXVI, both in RAF colours as they were used to train navigators in 1939/1940.
Edit: That's what happens when you type slowly, someone else beats you to it...
Edit: That's what happens when you type slowly, someone else beats you to it...
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OK so you're good on aircraft - frighteningly good....
But how about the chap third from right?
A clue? He performed two very particular aviation firsts a few years later.
A clue? He performed two very particular aviation firsts a few years later.
All of which got me thinking;
I had a very good friend called Eric Skemp. Sadly, Eric is no longer with us but I met him through 53 Sqn. (Eric flew Liberators on 53). After the war, he joined Scottish Airlines, ostensibly to fly their Liberators but he also flew the Fokker F XXII. Eric had two books published at his own expense before he died and I am honoured to have a copy of both books (the production run was only 30 copies each).
Here is what Eric had to say about the F XXII:
"And three days later, I had my first taste of the Fokker F-22 - again with Cormack - on a short 'pleasure flight.'
The F-22 was a remarkable beast. A beautifully streamlined airship-like fuselage, covered in silver fabric, surmounted by a ninety nine foot wooden wing and supported on a fixed (tailwheel) undercarriage, was fitted with seats for twenty-two passengers in facing pairs. Long rectangular windows afforded an excellent view. Carrying, in orange letters the Scottish Airlines name below the windows and the registration, G-AFZP, the company's rampant lion logo on the fin and the irreverently nicknamed "three pissy cats" either side of the nose, she was a magnificent sight. But, for my money, her claim to fame arose from her engines. Anyone who has heard a North American Harvard trainer with its high-revving Pratt and Whitney Wasp engine emitting a banshee-wail of ear-piecing intensity will remember the sound. 'ZP' had four of these engines in close proximity to the fuselage, each exhausting through a pair of short vertical smoke-stacks. With minimal internal sound-proofing, the noise was indescribable.
Up front, the flight deck was a long narrow affair. The captain sat in the nose, facing a huge circular control wheel. The first officer sat behind him to starboard, with a somewhat smaller wheel. The flight engineer was behind him, with a slightly smaller wheel which was used to operate the flaps.
Engine starting was hilarious. On the command "Go!" the engineer waggled the wobble pump, I waggled the mixture-lever and the captain waggled the throttle. Or maybe it was the other way round. At any rate, I distinctly remember all three of us either going up and down or backwards and forwards.
Ground handling in a high wind was tricky. But she was a grand old lady and the last of her line".
Incidentally, we had a facing pair of seats from 'ZP in the original Prestwick Spotters Club. The seats were beautifully made from red leather and each seat had the KLM logo pressed into the leather.
I actually know where they are now but some vandal has cut out the KLM logos.
I had a very good friend called Eric Skemp. Sadly, Eric is no longer with us but I met him through 53 Sqn. (Eric flew Liberators on 53). After the war, he joined Scottish Airlines, ostensibly to fly their Liberators but he also flew the Fokker F XXII. Eric had two books published at his own expense before he died and I am honoured to have a copy of both books (the production run was only 30 copies each).
Here is what Eric had to say about the F XXII:
"And three days later, I had my first taste of the Fokker F-22 - again with Cormack - on a short 'pleasure flight.'
The F-22 was a remarkable beast. A beautifully streamlined airship-like fuselage, covered in silver fabric, surmounted by a ninety nine foot wooden wing and supported on a fixed (tailwheel) undercarriage, was fitted with seats for twenty-two passengers in facing pairs. Long rectangular windows afforded an excellent view. Carrying, in orange letters the Scottish Airlines name below the windows and the registration, G-AFZP, the company's rampant lion logo on the fin and the irreverently nicknamed "three pissy cats" either side of the nose, she was a magnificent sight. But, for my money, her claim to fame arose from her engines. Anyone who has heard a North American Harvard trainer with its high-revving Pratt and Whitney Wasp engine emitting a banshee-wail of ear-piecing intensity will remember the sound. 'ZP' had four of these engines in close proximity to the fuselage, each exhausting through a pair of short vertical smoke-stacks. With minimal internal sound-proofing, the noise was indescribable.
Up front, the flight deck was a long narrow affair. The captain sat in the nose, facing a huge circular control wheel. The first officer sat behind him to starboard, with a somewhat smaller wheel. The flight engineer was behind him, with a slightly smaller wheel which was used to operate the flaps.
Engine starting was hilarious. On the command "Go!" the engineer waggled the wobble pump, I waggled the mixture-lever and the captain waggled the throttle. Or maybe it was the other way round. At any rate, I distinctly remember all three of us either going up and down or backwards and forwards.
Ground handling in a high wind was tricky. But she was a grand old lady and the last of her line".
Incidentally, we had a facing pair of seats from 'ZP in the original Prestwick Spotters Club. The seats were beautifully made from red leather and each seat had the KLM logo pressed into the leather.
I actually know where they are now but some vandal has cut out the KLM logos.
Last edited by JW411; 16th May 2011 at 16:38.
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Looking at pictures of the Fokker XXII, the fixed undercarriage must have contributed to the noise? A heck of a 'thrum' from those struts!
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A couple of earlier contributors likened the powerplant noise to that of a flight of Harvards.
The Harvard racket comes from the tips of the two-bladed props going supersonic.
A change to three blades fixes the problem - probably a major reason for the change to three-bladers on the FXXXVI.
p.s. DHC Beavers operating in noise-sensitive locations make the change from 2 to 3 for that reason as well.
The Harvard racket comes from the tips of the two-bladed props going supersonic.
A change to three blades fixes the problem - probably a major reason for the change to three-bladers on the FXXXVI.
p.s. DHC Beavers operating in noise-sensitive locations make the change from 2 to 3 for that reason as well.
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As the major contributior to aircraft development during the 30's was the new engines with steadily increasing power causing the prop' blades to likely being increased to three and later four and even five together with the size of the propellar-disc.
As the cardinal point shows to be pre-war or later could the two bladed propellars indicate an early construction, hence pre-war!
As the cardinal point shows to be pre-war or later could the two bladed propellars indicate an early construction, hence pre-war!
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Fokker XXII is from 1935 and with 500hp P&W Wasp engines.
This is the British counterpart(*) from 1937, the De Havilland DH91 with the 525hp DH Gipsy engines and likely twin-blade propellars!
(*): Actual they both was produced in few numbers as well as they didn't survive the second war :-o
This is the British counterpart(*) from 1937, the De Havilland DH91 with the 525hp DH Gipsy engines and likely twin-blade propellars!
(*): Actual they both was produced in few numbers as well as they didn't survive the second war :-o
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Yes SHJ, it kinda looks like they said 'oops, we'd better put a tail on it before we pinch the end off'.
Flybiker, as far as I know, the Albatross only ever had two-bladed props.
I imagine that the ungeared Gipsy 12 engine would have had a similar cruise rev range to P&Ws.
So, do we have anyone that can comment on how noisy they were?
EDIT: I looked up the Gipsy Twelve and it was, in fact, geared down by one third, so the prop tips probably would not have gone supersonic.
.
Flybiker, as far as I know, the Albatross only ever had two-bladed props.
I imagine that the ungeared Gipsy 12 engine would have had a similar cruise rev range to P&Ws.
So, do we have anyone that can comment on how noisy they were?
EDIT: I looked up the Gipsy Twelve and it was, in fact, geared down by one third, so the prop tips probably would not have gone supersonic.
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 2nd Jan 2016 at 18:39. Reason: EDIT.