Surviving the Fulda Gap

[Pontius Navigator]

WUH, agree, in one CPX we were quite surprised when SACEUR went for a first use demonstration. Now a demonstration was on the cards however he went for a massive demonstration just to show intent rather than a toe in the water.

It signalled endex after the predictable response.

[Whenurhappy]

Yes, definitely a case of 'Whoops - Apocalypse!'

I attended a Australian CPX in the late 1980s concerning the age-old enemy to the North - 'Musoria' - who seems to have copied the Indonesian ORBAT. The story surrounded an off-shore drilling rig in international waters. The overburden from the drilling established a small tidal islet which the Musorians then annexed. The Australian MFA had demarched the Musorians, giving them 72 hours to vacate the platform and islet - and then to seek international arbitration. After 48 hours the ADF launched everything they had against the Musorians, destroying most of their naval and air assets. The Musorians then responded with a small fission device over Darwin. Endex - and the ADF Cdr resceived a severe telling-off from the Defence Minister for pre-emptive action.

[sisemen]

And we knew pretty much about their guys too.

I well remember a Comsec presentation at Wittering which started with a recording of a Russian voice and the presenter then proceeding to tell us all about this particular Russian pilot, his home life, and his squadron activities.

[monkeytennis]

Very interesting thread guys. As a child of the 80s who lived next door to an RAF station and had watched 'Threads' I didn't fancy my own chances much but can't imagine what it must have been like to think you may have to pilot several tons of metal on an almost certain one-way trip.

Please keep the anecdotes flowing

[Whenurhappy]

Early days of the UK Deterrent

There was a massive expansion of Britain's nuclear capability under Harold Macmillan (although it is alleged that in an effort to produce sufficient plutonium and tritium, safety procedures were cut resulting in the Windscale Diasater). However, what we now know as the 'nuclear chain' was a bit patchy. If the Prime Minister was travelling by car (and therefore out of easy radio communication - and long before mobile phones, of course) and there was a requirement to bring the deterrent to readiness, or God forbid, release it, the Cabinet Office would contact the AA, who would contact their patrolmen to wave down the PM and get him to authorise release over the AA's radio and telephone network. Simples!

Also, unrelated, is an interesting quote (albeit from Wikipedia):

On Macmillan's advice in April 1982 Mrs Thatcher excluded the Treasury from her Falklands War Cabinet. She later said: 'I never regretted following Harold Macmillan's advice. We were never tempted to compromise the security of our forces for financial reasons. Everything we did was governed by military necessity.

[Stubenfliege 2]

A little off topic question:

Any book or internet resource suggestion about this Topic? I have read some time ago this Hackett book

and I know this website:

Cold War Forum - Bunker, Militäranlagen, Basen & Relikte

Growing up near the German / German border in the cold war, I´ve being just curios about "What, if....."

Thanks in advance,

Stubenfliege

[Yellow Sun]

I recall that we believed that one of the first indications of the outbreak of hostilities would 51 Sqn going down to 2 aircraft.

YS

[AR1]

Slight thread creep, more cumberland gap than Fulda.. But anyway.
During one training exercise in the UK, we (Me + 1) captured a 'Spetznaz' operative who was considerably bigger than either of us. I agressively commanded him to yeild to my search, and he was terribly compliant while I frisked him. All the while, the monster just stood there grinning at me. I am under no illusions that had it been a Blue on Red he would have killed me.

I vowed to myself that should that scenario ever happen for real, then I'd shoot him first, and frisk him later. Assuming of course he didnt shoot me after my first 7.62 round flew 20 feet over his head.

It didnt't help that we were buddied up for defence purposes by trainees from a nearby School of Tech Training, who's service was measured in days or weeks and survivability measured in seconds.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by AR1

It didnt't help that we were buddied up for defence purposes by trainees from a nearby School of Tech Training, who's service was measured in days or weeks and survivability measured in seconds.

Reminds me of the annual security exercise in Cyprus when Opfor had the run of the base for a couple of weeks, withdrew and then intruded. Commando types simply disappeared in the bundo, probably in the various caves, and emerged to create a very quiet sort of havoc.

Every year we would lose all the aircraft or all the aircrew.

One aircrew year a SAS officer camped on the Mess roof for a few days before the exercise. When the bar doors were opened to release the heat he swung in, handgrenade in one hand, SMG in the other, dagger in his mouth.

He was instantly disarmed with a pint of beer.

Meanwhile the mess was being patrolled by aircrew and being picked off every couple of minutes as the patrolled around the fence

[Tashengurt]

These tales remind me of being on the mobile defence force at Leuchars. Essentially made up of sprogs who were of no use to their normal trades, we tore around in stripped down landies armed to the teeth with SLRs and LMGs.
Creeping round the northern HAS after intruders one dark night it all felt very Rambo until I felt a hand over my mouth and a whispered Gotcha! in my ear. I was led round a HAS to find the rest of the patrol looking sheepish under guard.
I think the Scots guards were the intruders.
They let us capture them the next day though.

[Whenurhappy]

Inspite of the overbearing seriousness of the Cold War and the threat of near-instantaneous emolation, aren't the stories of this era now rather quaint and naive compared with what we now do in Afghanistan - and other theatres?

Common Core Skills now focusses on life or death first aid decisions on the battlefield, rather than finding someone who has fallen off a ladder or has burnt themselves with a kettle. Resistance training is no longer a 'Jolly Hockeysticks' romp and insistence on sticking to the Big 5. Pre-deployment training involves some pretty horrific videos and realistic training. We have an Air Force, well at least certain parts of it, that arguably have more combat experience (albeit different) than WWII veterans. Most personnel who have served in Afghanistan have been under fire and directly seen the effects of modern - and not so modern -weaponry. Imagine how the troops would react if we returned to the old-style, TACEVAL oriented collective training...bodge tape and plastic COLPRO, mine tape shelters, rediculously ludicrous casualties, the LMF airman...

[Winchweight]

I returned from my 3rd tour (rotary aircrew) in Afghan to be posted to Shawbury. Very nice thinks I, but I was immediately dragged kicking and screaming into Ex Green Tiger, a Taceval-esque exercise aimed at trying to get some of the career blunties to accept that they might not always be sat in an air-conditioned office in theatre. One rather fat female ATC officer collapsed on day 2. We then found out that she refused to eat Compo, preferring her diet chewy bars to actual food!

We still made bashers and bivvys, patrolled looking for Afghan Spetsnaz and shot down Harrier mates, cooked on a camp fire etc (no ging, gang, goolies mind you).... All very quaint. Despite another aircrew mate and I trying to explain to the other players (LAC to S/L, none of whom had ever deployed), they resisted any idea that things had changed since the Cold War. It was a nice idea, but missed the point.

Many people still do not accept the idea that, although you might be an air traffic controller, you might well find yourself repelling Jonny Taliban in a sangar at a remote LZ, or riding top cover in Snatch or Saxon. Even after all this time in Iraq and Afghan!

The business of war fighting is still completed primarily by the Army and very few members of the other Services. Indeed a tour in theatre for most is still a pleasant trip to Butlins Kandahar, or topping up your tan whilst waiting for your go on the internet before a pizza and a Green Bean coffee.

I agree that CCS has improved massively and PDT is better than ever. But still very few of us actually get involved in the pointy end of conflict.

[hanoijane]

You could - and perhaps you should - look at the issue the other way around. How long does an army / air force / whatever retain the skills they've learnt in combat? Before training drifts into the less demanding world of 'exercises' again?

[Wwyvern]

We seem now to be recalling exercises. In the late 60s, a staff officer colleague of mine had been RAF Commanding Officer of a USAF base in East Anglia. The RAF CO was a Sqn Ldr. although the USAF commander was a Colonel or higher. The USAF threw an exercise which included all USAF personnel climbing into anti gas kit. The RAF CO had a staff of one NCO and a civilian typist. The lady typist was clattering away on her typewriter by the open window of her office, when she was approached from outside by a large American in NBC kit, including gasmask. He said something which she could not hear or understand, and requested that he repeat it. He looked around sheepishly before sliding the bottom of his gasmask clear of his mouth to tell her, "Ma'am, you're dead." She replied, "Don't be silly, I'm British." He replied, "Sorry, Ma'am" and went off.

[Whenurhappy]

Winchweight - you have my sympathy.

My Branch in old money - Admin - is about as blunt as it gets when you look at Wg Cdrs and above. Yet I am on my second row of campaign medals but there are colleagues of mine with only the Jubilee Medal and perhaps an MBE for 'charridee' - and get promoted because they've stuck to low-career risk core admin stuff, rather than my rather eclectic (read interesting and exciting) career. Luckily there is a good clutch of younger Flt Lts and Sqn Ldrs who no nothing but direct support to operations who, I hope, will re-energise the Branch.

I am a firm believer that conduct on operations is the true test of someone's performance - and I have done my fair share of high-profile staff tours as well. Hanoi Jane - retaining this knowledge and experience will be a major problem post c 2015, when our presence on the ground is substanially reduced. This will be particularly acute in the FP role becasue of the rapid turn-over of RAF Regt personnel.

[c130jbloke]

Inspite of the overbearing seriousness of the Cold War and the threat of near-instantaneous emolation, aren't the stories of this era now rather quaint and naive compared with what we now do in Afghanistan - and other theatres?

Oh FFS

Why then don't you pull up a sandbag for your AFG stories and do tell.

As for the combat comparison, ( and I am NOT dissing anybody ) WWII Bomber Command = average of 6% per mission. Total Herrick losses to date expressed as an average against total number deployed ?

Bullets are bullets, war stories are just that - war stories. But you are spot on with the reference to deployment performance. The US Army learnt that one pretty quick before the Iraq surge.

[Whenurhappy]

Clearly playing round with plastic and bodge tape to make COLPRO was, well, amatuerish, to say the least. Apart from 'peripheral' conflicts and NI, most ex RAF personnel have few war stories from the Cold War - ie, when guys were actually shooting them.

The point I am making now is that the training those serving receive is considerably more realistic that in those halcyon, static days. No doubt our collective war stories for Iraq and Afghnaistan will be as quaint and naive when our Servicesa re engaged in 'speed of light' cyber war, and our weapons are morphing Nth degree polynomials!

[c130jbloke]

IMHO the (undeclared ) cyber war with China / Russia / Iran / N Korea / AQ + special guest stars started about 3 years ago. I would love to hear those stories, though I would probably not understand a single 1011001010010100101 of it

[sisemen]

A quick story from way back in a different part of the sandpit - Aden. As a very young 19 year old it was quite a sobering experience to be out at night, on guard, on your own (yep, they hadn't really learned about the buddy system then) with the possibility of facing real bullets.

When it was your turn for your 2 hour stint you collected your .303 from the arms storage area and a clip of 5 rounds. I remember walking the bund surrounding the oil tanks at the power house at Khormaksar and doing what probably every other airman had done since the emergency started - I took out the magazine and removed the bullets to make sure that I still had the 5. It was somewhat of a surprise to find that the copper pointy bit readily came out of the brass blunty bit with not a skerrick of powder to be seen!

[exMudmover]

Whenurhappy

Cold War training quaint and unrealistic? I can assure you that whatever the blunties got up to in those days, Fast-Jet aircrew had to train seriously hard every day in the difficult and dangerous business of Low Level Ground Attack and Recce, and this led to a lot of casualties, with no gongs to show for it, apart from the occasional AFC. Just flying around at Low Level in UK and RAFG in the prevailing cruddy weather, trying to dodge the bounce and get to the target led to a lot of casualties, quite a few from mid-air collisions. Remember, we had no sophisticated Navigation Aids or smart weapons, everything was Map and Stopwatch and Mk 1 Eyeball. You had to rely on pure piloting skill and airmanship to avoid creaming yourself (and your Nav) on any given sortie.

I was instructing at a Fast Jet OCU in the 70s and in one 6 month period we had one third of the Staff killed off in flying accidents – all related to Low Flying.

Whenurhappy. I suggest you take a look at how many Fast Jet Casualties there have been since GW1.