Trislander retirement
Bring back the Dak!
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Mention of Twotters stirred the memory somewhat, I seem to think that prop-brakes can be fitted, leaving a running core-engine, and a stationary prop. This would get round the cycles problem, but ground handling would have to be pretty smart on the turnrounds, and maybe there are other engine time constraints/penalties incurred in doing this.
In very cold Polar temps, a volunteer would hold the prop stationary on engine-start, and only let go when a minimum oil temperature was achieved; this could take several minutes, and this and stepping back from the prop on the frozen surface was all rather heroic.
I enjoyed several years flying the Aurigny Twotters in their heyday, but we shutdown the engines after each sector, and the cycles mounted, and they eventually cycled themselves out of viability.
Super VC10.......I have to agree, a twin turbo-Dak has to at least be looked at. (Well I would say that, wouldn't I!).
Aero Mad.......UK CAA were trying to stop Daks from flying pax in the 70's, when I was charged with keeping Intra's fleet passing their C of A Air Tests. They failed to find a good reason then, and this latter-day business of slides, IMHO, has an air of desperation about it, and, more's the pity, successful desperation at that.
In very cold Polar temps, a volunteer would hold the prop stationary on engine-start, and only let go when a minimum oil temperature was achieved; this could take several minutes, and this and stepping back from the prop on the frozen surface was all rather heroic.
I enjoyed several years flying the Aurigny Twotters in their heyday, but we shutdown the engines after each sector, and the cycles mounted, and they eventually cycled themselves out of viability.
Super VC10.......I have to agree, a twin turbo-Dak has to at least be looked at. (Well I would say that, wouldn't I!).
Aero Mad.......UK CAA were trying to stop Daks from flying pax in the 70's, when I was charged with keeping Intra's fleet passing their C of A Air Tests. They failed to find a good reason then, and this latter-day business of slides, IMHO, has an air of desperation about it, and, more's the pity, successful desperation at that.
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I quite agree. It is sad that the aviation officials of the UK are so against Daks carrying passengers. They've been going for 60 years - why is the situation so different now 
.
You probably know Ralph Burridge, who was telling me recently that Aurigny used to shut down an engine whilst loading pax sometimes. Was all far too complicated but I hear that on the series 400 the problem has been overcome (would love to know how - probably one of the ways you mentioned) and on older varients there are ways around it.
.You probably know Ralph Burridge, who was telling me recently that Aurigny used to shut down an engine whilst loading pax sometimes. Was all far too complicated but I hear that on the series 400 the problem has been overcome (would love to know how - probably one of the ways you mentioned) and on older varients there are ways around it.
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The good old Tri, noisy but great fun! Not STOL like the Islander but the cheapest way to move 17 punters going. I remember G-AYWI too, it was the first production model (G-AYTU was the cut and shut), left the islands in the mid-80s and I heard was later crashed due to fuel exhaustion. Flying them is a dim distant memory now but apparently BN were trying to flog new ones at this year's Farnborough!
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I have travelled in Aurigny Trislanders Guernsey-Alderney, including G-JOEY, but have never been an aviation professional, so please be forebearing if what I am about to say is nonsense.
I gather that the existing aircraft are around 35 years old, and although the frequent inter-island hops may have used up a significant proportion of their recommended cycles, from my long and close family association with Guernsey I have come to believe they have proved to be a very safe means of travel, over that service period. I can only recall one forced landing incident in Guernsey some years ago, related to management of fuel, which was non-fatal. Their reliability seems to have been adequately demonstrated, from the passengers' viewpoint.
I also understand that a new Twin Otter turboprop replacement might cost about $4 million, which is apparently regarded as too much, that the turbine disc life is not best suited to high-intensity use on short hops, and that the fuel used may not be available in Alderney for very long. This seems to lead to a general conclusion that if a new replacement aircraft is to be procured, it should be piston engined, and several posts have mentioned possible types.
However, no mention has been made of the possibility of taking up options with Britten-Norman for new-build Trislanders, with up to date avionics and perhaps uprated Avco-Lycoming engines with, say, 400 hp rather than 260 hp power rating. It seems possible that the price for such an aircraft, of demonstrable suitability for the services required of it, could be significantly less than $4 million. Are there universally-agreed reasons why this is impractical/impossible/undesirable?
I repeat, I'm not in aviation, I'm a retired consulting civil/structural engineer, but I do have a very keen interest in Channel Islands air travel, and a warm affection for the "Yellow Buzz-Bombs". Please be kind!
I gather that the existing aircraft are around 35 years old, and although the frequent inter-island hops may have used up a significant proportion of their recommended cycles, from my long and close family association with Guernsey I have come to believe they have proved to be a very safe means of travel, over that service period. I can only recall one forced landing incident in Guernsey some years ago, related to management of fuel, which was non-fatal. Their reliability seems to have been adequately demonstrated, from the passengers' viewpoint.
I also understand that a new Twin Otter turboprop replacement might cost about $4 million, which is apparently regarded as too much, that the turbine disc life is not best suited to high-intensity use on short hops, and that the fuel used may not be available in Alderney for very long. This seems to lead to a general conclusion that if a new replacement aircraft is to be procured, it should be piston engined, and several posts have mentioned possible types.
However, no mention has been made of the possibility of taking up options with Britten-Norman for new-build Trislanders, with up to date avionics and perhaps uprated Avco-Lycoming engines with, say, 400 hp rather than 260 hp power rating. It seems possible that the price for such an aircraft, of demonstrable suitability for the services required of it, could be significantly less than $4 million. Are there universally-agreed reasons why this is impractical/impossible/undesirable?
I repeat, I'm not in aviation, I'm a retired consulting civil/structural engineer, but I do have a very keen interest in Channel Islands air travel, and a warm affection for the "Yellow Buzz-Bombs". Please be kind!
Last edited by 603DX; 28th Jul 2010 at 21:28. Reason: Tidying up a bit ...
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Those unfortunate details
Ok im tired of watching people speculate as to why you think its DC's choice to get rid of the Trislanders. Its not
2012 is when the CAA will no longer allow the Channel Islands to be non-complient with EU-OPS for a number of reasons.
But its JAR-OPS (which we could have exemptions to) and EU-OPS (which we can't) that are gonna see the end of the Trislanders.
Subpart K mostly, stuff like
warning system — TAWS).
So Islanders with 9 seats are okay....Trislanders 17 seats not so good.
I can't see Britten Norman developing TAWS, WX radar and Emergency exit lights for new trislanders. If they do great but thats a lot of development cost especially under EASA (not cheap).
I love Trislanders I have been fortunate enought to fly them and the thought of them going makes me sad, but its buisness.
If Aurigny was as good as everyone says (and they were for most of the 90's) then they wouldn't be in the position to be sold without them having any say in the matter.
2012 is when the CAA will no longer allow the Channel Islands to be non-complient with EU-OPS for a number of reasons.
But its JAR-OPS (which we could have exemptions to) and EU-OPS (which we can't) that are gonna see the end of the Trislanders.
Subpart K mostly, stuff like
OPS 1.665
Ground proximity warning system and terrain awareness warning system
(a) An operator shall not operate a turbine powered aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass in excess of
5 700 kg or a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than nine unless it is equipped with a
ground proximity warning system that includes a predictive terrain hazard warning function (terrain awareness and
Ground proximity warning system and terrain awareness warning system
(a) An operator shall not operate a turbine powered aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass in excess of
5 700 kg or a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than nine unless it is equipped with a
ground proximity warning system that includes a predictive terrain hazard warning function (terrain awareness and
warning system — TAWS).
OPS 1.670
Airborne weather radar equipment
(a) An operator shall not operate:
1. a pressurised aeroplane; or
2. an unpressurised aeroplane which has a maximum certificated take-off mass of more than 5 700 kg; or
3. an unpressurised aeroplane having a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than nine seats,
unless it is equipped with airborne weather radar equipment whenever such an aeroplane is being operated at night
or in instrument meteorological conditions in areas where thunderstorms or other potentially hazardous weather
conditions, regarded as detectable with airborne weather radar, may be expected to exist along the route.1. a pressurised aeroplane; or
2. an unpressurised aeroplane which has a maximum certificated take-off mass of more than 5 700 kg; or
3. an unpressurised aeroplane having a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than nine seats,
unless it is equipped with airborne weather radar equipment whenever such an aeroplane is being operated at night
or in instrument meteorological conditions in areas where thunderstorms or other potentially hazardous weather
OPS 1.815
Emergency lighting
(a) An operator shall not operate a passenger carrying aeroplane which has a maximum approved passenger seating configuration
of more than nine unless it is provided with an emergency lighting system having an independent power
supply to facilitate the evacuation of the aeroplane. The emergency lighting system must include:of more than nine unless it is provided with an emergency lighting system having an independent power
So Islanders with 9 seats are okay....Trislanders 17 seats not so good.
I can't see Britten Norman developing TAWS, WX radar and Emergency exit lights for new trislanders. If they do great but thats a lot of development cost especially under EASA (not cheap).
I love Trislanders I have been fortunate enought to fly them and the thought of them going makes me sad, but its buisness.
If Aurigny was as good as everyone says (and they were for most of the 90's) then they wouldn't be in the position to be sold without them having any say in the matter.
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Of all the responses on the various threads on the subject, at last, facts over speculation. Thanks Sleepybuddha. They should be OK for TAWS, but an autopilot that works and was designed in this century would be helpful.
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I can't see Britten Norman developing TAWS, WX radar and Emergency exit lights for new trislanders. If they do great but thats a lot of development cost especially under EASA (not cheap).
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Ground proximity warning system and terrain awareness warning system
(a) An operator shall not operate a turbine powered aeroplane
(a) An operator shall not operate a turbine powered aeroplane
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Yes, I noticed that as well, but assumed that since Sleepybhudda seemed to be only showing typical extracts from the OPS requirements, the same sort of wording probably occurs for OPS 1.665 (b), related to piston engined aircraft. If my assumption is wrong, and these TAWS, WX radar and Emergency lighting requirements are NOT required, then so much the better for procurement of new aircraft at reasonable cost.
But having said that, these items all seem sensible additions, irrespective of whether the aircraft is turbine OR piston powered!
But having said that, these items all seem sensible additions, irrespective of whether the aircraft is turbine OR piston powered!
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I realise that this is possibly not the right place for the thoughts I am about to express, being an aviation forum, but I am looking at it from the perspective of transport, rather than aviation. I am wearing my bullet proof vest!
I spend a lot of time on the two main islands and travelling between them, in fact spent two months commuting almost daily, so I do have some insight into this.
First of all the two population and commerce centres are St. Helier and St Peter Port, and most traffic (other than connecting which I'll come to) is to/from those points. The airports, whilst not far in actual terms, are, relative to the size of the islands, not close to either centre.
The current maritime service offered by Condor Ferries is inadequate in terms of frequency, and expensive. They have over the years put competitors out of business (one only has to think of HD Ferries most recently).
Isn't it time that the States Goverments put their heads together and provided a frequent and faster service operating at regular intervals throughout the day? I appreciate that there are some constraints imposed by tide and wind conditions.
As far as air traffic is concerned, there will always be a need for feeder services but there are ways of maintaining those and improving scheduling.
I don't have the MIDT figures to hand for the city pair JER-GCI but I'd guess from looking at the schedules that on an average weekday the seat offer for the 3 carriers is about 500 seats across 25 flights each way and in my experience occupancy is generally around 80%.
Is there a suitable high speed ferry to offer an adequate and cost effective service? I don't know much about maritime transport except that many people find it less stressful and more pleasant than flying, and arguably more environmentally friendly although possibly not on this route as the small twin props CO2 emissions are probably very low.
I spend a lot of time on the two main islands and travelling between them, in fact spent two months commuting almost daily, so I do have some insight into this.
First of all the two population and commerce centres are St. Helier and St Peter Port, and most traffic (other than connecting which I'll come to) is to/from those points. The airports, whilst not far in actual terms, are, relative to the size of the islands, not close to either centre.
The current maritime service offered by Condor Ferries is inadequate in terms of frequency, and expensive. They have over the years put competitors out of business (one only has to think of HD Ferries most recently).
Isn't it time that the States Goverments put their heads together and provided a frequent and faster service operating at regular intervals throughout the day? I appreciate that there are some constraints imposed by tide and wind conditions.
As far as air traffic is concerned, there will always be a need for feeder services but there are ways of maintaining those and improving scheduling.
I don't have the MIDT figures to hand for the city pair JER-GCI but I'd guess from looking at the schedules that on an average weekday the seat offer for the 3 carriers is about 500 seats across 25 flights each way and in my experience occupancy is generally around 80%.
Is there a suitable high speed ferry to offer an adequate and cost effective service? I don't know much about maritime transport except that many people find it less stressful and more pleasant than flying, and arguably more environmentally friendly although possibly not on this route as the small twin props CO2 emissions are probably very low.
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In today's Guernsey Press, Aurigny MD Malcolm Hart:
Some deputies are also making a fuss because while the Treasurer and Mr Coates are free to brief the press the 'so-called' arm's-length relationship between Aurigny and the States has led to Hart being gagged.
There is also a pretty robust Editorial condemning the way the politicians advocating the sale have handled it.
Whatever the merits of the proposal, its handling has been a PR disaster.....
The Aurigny Trislanders have what is known as an 'extended fatigue life' which was agreed between the manufacturer, Britten-Norman and the CAA in 1987 due to the relatively benign over-water operations for which they are used. This means that the aircraft we operate and maintain actually have a flying life of 21,000 hours or 70,000 landings - not the 39,000 landings as has been stated by other parties [Derek Coates] in recent days.
There is also a pretty robust Editorial condemning the way the politicians advocating the sale have handled it.
Whatever the merits of the proposal, its handling has been a PR disaster.....
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Now the BBC are reporting Hart's 'Trislanders will fly until 2034' line - no one has contradicted him publicly yet.....Now an Alderney resident Mr Boyer has suggested taking over the Trislander fleet for Alderney to provide links to Guernsey & Southampton.....but that won't help Mr Coates hotels....
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the 3 blade props were one of the requirements to raise the max take of weight after the caa increased pasenger average weights years ago. approvals were in place to put them on the wing engines as the islander had them there were no approvals for the tail engine so that would have been a much dearer exercise, also the stronger gear legs higher tyre presure and carying balasted fuel in tip tanks . noise reduction was a welcome side effect
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To keep this one going for a little longer.....here is a pic of G-BEVT taken from my back garden on her approach into Southampton last week. Note the prop blade count of 2 x 3 and 1 x 2.
Last edited by Corsairoz; 6th Aug 2010 at 11:29.
DH-114?
Think Alderney's a bit short for the Dak, Super VC10. No figures to hand, but Morton's used to fly Daks to GCI and JER, but only Herrings (Mark 1B with riveted undercarriage) into Alderney, until we (BUIA by then) were rudely kicked out by the newly-formed Aurigny in 1969. With the Dak, you would certainly need to do a 3-pointer, not normally performed with pax.
There is always the ex-Faiflight Heron 2D (posing as Morton's G-AOXL, which was a mark 1B) rotting sadly on a stand by the A23 at Croydon Airport...
Chris
There is always the ex-Faiflight Heron 2D (posing as Morton's G-AOXL, which was a mark 1B) rotting sadly on a stand by the A23 at Croydon Airport...
Chris
Last edited by Chris Scott; 6th Aug 2010 at 17:22.
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As the author of a book on the history of aviation in Alderney, I always got the impression that BUIA finally pulled out with one week's notice in 1969 and Aurigny took over the Alderney - Southampton route at last - maybe I'm wrong. Yes, didn't think the Dak could manage it.