Fatal crash of Puss Moth CF-APK Italy 1933
Anyone following decades of the Hinkler 'debate' will know that the two outstanding antagonists were Ted Wixted with close connections to the Queensland Museum and Roy Bettiens ex-RAAF. The latter took such exception to the Wixted theories and manner of treating history that he wrote a massive privately published and circulated book known colloquially as THE BETTIENS TOME. In aviation history terms it was the slanging match of the decade
Those excessively precious about their 'evidence' might profitably revisit the Wixted/Bettiens conflict to get a perspective on how pettiness, rancour and vitriol can blot out reason. Or simply lose the ability to weigh up probability
and on balance concede that unknowns outweigh knowns.
Just two queries relevant to the Hinkler crash site investigation. How much had the wreckage been gone over by souvenir hunters and scavangers before the man from the ministry had a look? And why is not entirely conceivable that Mussolini ordered that no blame for the accident be attributable to Hinkler?
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Facts John/fantome. Facts. Not supposition. You are entitled to your opinion as are Messrs Wixted and Bettiens.
Do you have copies of the photographs of the wreckage taken by the Italians? Yes I do.
Do you have copies of the Italian documentation? Yes I do.
Do you have a copy of the R&M Report on Puss Moth Crashes? Yes I do.
Do you have copies of the Wixted book, Bettiens book, Mackenzie book (both original and 1979 reprint), Kieza book, Avro Test Pilots book (which has a section on Hinkler)? Yes I do.
Have you worked with an aircrash investigator (who was a previous owner of the Puss Moth now in the Hinkler Hall of Aviation so may well have some knowledge of air crash investigation and of Puss Moth aircraft)? Yes I have.
Have you had at length discussions with John Watkins (who should need no introduction to anyone who knows anything about Australian Aviation History and also investigated a Puss Moth crash in Australia)? Yes I have. Sadly John Watkins is no longer with us but a nicer gentleman or a more knowledgeable engineer and air crash investigator you will never meet.
Have you discussed the crash with John Kepert who used to work at the Aeronautical Research Laboratory here in Melbourne? I have.
Have you given copies of everything you have found to Lex Rowland? I have.
Have you read and analysed the facts contained in the information listed above and have you read the conclusions that people much more qualified than you have arrived at? Yes I have.
Have you really considered ALL of the information that you could find before forming your opinion? I have.
Deal in facts not supposition and innuendo with no factual basis and you may well have some credibility. You are most definitely entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. Opinion not based on fact.
Do you have copies of the photographs of the wreckage taken by the Italians? Yes I do.
Do you have copies of the Italian documentation? Yes I do.
Do you have a copy of the R&M Report on Puss Moth Crashes? Yes I do.
Do you have copies of the Wixted book, Bettiens book, Mackenzie book (both original and 1979 reprint), Kieza book, Avro Test Pilots book (which has a section on Hinkler)? Yes I do.
Have you worked with an aircrash investigator (who was a previous owner of the Puss Moth now in the Hinkler Hall of Aviation so may well have some knowledge of air crash investigation and of Puss Moth aircraft)? Yes I have.
Have you had at length discussions with John Watkins (who should need no introduction to anyone who knows anything about Australian Aviation History and also investigated a Puss Moth crash in Australia)? Yes I have. Sadly John Watkins is no longer with us but a nicer gentleman or a more knowledgeable engineer and air crash investigator you will never meet.
Have you discussed the crash with John Kepert who used to work at the Aeronautical Research Laboratory here in Melbourne? I have.
Have you given copies of everything you have found to Lex Rowland? I have.
Have you read and analysed the facts contained in the information listed above and have you read the conclusions that people much more qualified than you have arrived at? Yes I have.
Have you really considered ALL of the information that you could find before forming your opinion? I have.
Deal in facts not supposition and innuendo with no factual basis and you may well have some credibility. You are most definitely entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. Opinion not based on fact.
Last edited by ian.whalley; 6th Aug 2012 at 21:02. Reason: spelling (again)
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That comment John is rude and uncalled for and very unprofessional. If you have to resort to name calling instead of factual argument then it shows your true character and your level of knowledge. Probably something along the lines of what you have to say in the previous post.
I'm not beating my own drum simply trying to show you the amount of work and research that I have done. If you are unable to engage in a factual discussion and have to resort to name calling that is your problem, not mine.
I'm not beating my own drum simply trying to show you the amount of work and research that I have done. If you are unable to engage in a factual discussion and have to resort to name calling that is your problem, not mine.
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wreckage
The wreckage of Bert's plane was taken to the military airfield and destroyed. But the the Gipsy engine was salvaged and used in a Genairco aircraft for some time before being sold in Brisbane in 1948 for £25 for use in a Gipsy Moth
Bert Hinkler: The Most Daring Man In The World by Grantlee Kieza
Bert Hinkler: The Most Daring Man In The World by Grantlee Kieza
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This is the document that I have a copy of:
Air Ministry
Aeronautical Research Committee
Reports and Memoranda
R & M No. 1699
Report on Puss Moth Accidents
HMSO 1937
The members of the committe are listed with their qualifications and I am happy to provide those details if needed. The committee were assisted by the staff of the Royal Aircraft Establishment, National Physics Laboaratory and de Havilland Aircraft Company so I think we could safely say the committee were well qualified and their investigation and findings were of a high standard.
It covers the crash of 9 Puss Moths as follows
VH-UPC Western Australia October 1930
ZS-ACC South Africa May 1931
ZS-ACD South Africa November 1931
UT Canada May 1932
G-ABDH England July 1932
VH-UPM Australia September 1932
G-ABFU France October 1932
CF-APK Italy January 1933 (Hinkler)
HS-PAA Siam June 1933
The Hinkler summary states:
The accident took place at night in very bad weather in high mountains at a height of about 6,500 feet...
That the wing broke away in the air is demonstrated by the lack of splitting of the wing joint, besides the distance which separates the two points where the wing and the remainder of the machine were found (approx 250 m/820 ft).
Thanks to Grantlee Kieza I recently discovered that the quote " that the wing broke away in the air ..." is actually from correspondence between the Italian Air Ministry and the Air Attache at the British Embassy in Rome. Grantlee obtained the documentation from Hinkler House in Bundaberg so they would probably be the people to contact for copies of documents.
The Oxley Library and the Queensland Museum in Brisbane QLD have a collection of Hinkler documents and artifacts as well.
Air Ministry
Aeronautical Research Committee
Reports and Memoranda
R & M No. 1699
Report on Puss Moth Accidents
HMSO 1937
The members of the committe are listed with their qualifications and I am happy to provide those details if needed. The committee were assisted by the staff of the Royal Aircraft Establishment, National Physics Laboaratory and de Havilland Aircraft Company so I think we could safely say the committee were well qualified and their investigation and findings were of a high standard.
It covers the crash of 9 Puss Moths as follows
VH-UPC Western Australia October 1930
ZS-ACC South Africa May 1931
ZS-ACD South Africa November 1931
UT Canada May 1932
G-ABDH England July 1932
VH-UPM Australia September 1932
G-ABFU France October 1932
CF-APK Italy January 1933 (Hinkler)
HS-PAA Siam June 1933
The Hinkler summary states:
The accident took place at night in very bad weather in high mountains at a height of about 6,500 feet...
That the wing broke away in the air is demonstrated by the lack of splitting of the wing joint, besides the distance which separates the two points where the wing and the remainder of the machine were found (approx 250 m/820 ft).
Thanks to Grantlee Kieza I recently discovered that the quote " that the wing broke away in the air ..." is actually from correspondence between the Italian Air Ministry and the Air Attache at the British Embassy in Rome. Grantlee obtained the documentation from Hinkler House in Bundaberg so they would probably be the people to contact for copies of documents.
The Oxley Library and the Queensland Museum in Brisbane QLD have a collection of Hinkler documents and artifacts as well.
Ian if you don't already have them, I know where two copies of the books Last Flight Of Bert Hinkler and Solo: The Bert Hinkler Story are available. PM me for more info and I'll put you in touch with the gentleman who has the books for sale. Both books are in used condition, but apparently in good shape.
Last edited by pigboat; 11th Aug 2012 at 22:42.
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The Greatest Aviator
Just interested in the choice of everyone for the greatest pilot from the early days of aviation.
Having written Bert Hinkler's biography I find it hard for anyone to surpass England to Aust solo in an Avian and solo across the South Atlantic in a Puss Moth.
The Puss Moth had half the power of Lindbergh's Trans-atlantic machine.
I think the solo aspect puts Hinkler and Lindbergh in a different league to other pilots of the day.
Having written Bert Hinkler's biography I find it hard for anyone to surpass England to Aust solo in an Avian and solo across the South Atlantic in a Puss Moth.
The Puss Moth had half the power of Lindbergh's Trans-atlantic machine.
I think the solo aspect puts Hinkler and Lindbergh in a different league to other pilots of the day.
I AM THE GREATEST?
YOU ARE THE GREATEST?
HE IS THE GREATEST?
Leaving M Ali out of the declension, I think we should decline to put any one flier on the highest most pedestal. For sure, Bert would rotate at the thought were exhumation for an opinion possible, though that is not the point of course.
Geraldine Doogue on the wireless was caught saying 'comparisons are insidious' She meant 'invidious' of course. But worth a laugh. As is the notion of singling out one man for god.
Grantlee, you cannot say that any one of these fliers was better than the other -
Lindbergh
Kingsford Smith
Post with Gatty
Carl Ben Eielson with Wilkins
Hawker with Sopwiths
Cobham
de Pinedo
Henshaw (a solo wunderkind)
Chichester
Adding the necessary rider, that while HJL Hinkler was in some respects an extraordinary one-off, he was neither the most daring man in the world nor the world's greatest aviator. That he was up there is enough.
Last edited by Fantome; 13th Aug 2012 at 00:30.
"The Puss Moth had half the power of Lindbergh's Trans-atlantic machine."
Sorry, but that is not highly relevant. How they and their aircraft coped with initial gross overload is. Without going into the archive, the Ryan NYP's wing loading was many times that of the DH 80. Added to that the Ryan was inherently unstable, as Paul Mantz found when he flew the faithful replica for the movie.
Sorry, but that is not highly relevant. How they and their aircraft coped with initial gross overload is. Without going into the archive, the Ryan NYP's wing loading was many times that of the DH 80. Added to that the Ryan was inherently unstable, as Paul Mantz found when he flew the faithful replica for the movie.
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What always stuns me about Lindbergh is not his flying ability but his ability to stay awake. 33+ hours for the flight and he didn't sleep a wink the night before takeoff. I once did a long-distance record drive in a Porsche 911, with a co-driver, and switching off every three hours or so for 48 hours, nonstop except for fuel, was almost unbearable after awhile. And a 911 is way easier to drive than the SoSL was to fly.
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That's a great point. In Australia and many other countries there is an inbuilt warning when you haven't had a rest from driving for 2 hours. The fact that guys like Hinkler and Lindbergh could fly for 25-30 hours non stop solo is mind-boggling.
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Risk vs safety
From two slots above:
BTW, for those interested in earlier flights of C.A.L. [C.A.M. Route #2], PHOTOGRAPHS from the defunct newspaper, the Saint Louis Globe-Democrat (a "backer" of the airplane "Spirit") are available on the "web". Almost all those digitized images from the 1920's are mislabeled, and many photos are mirror-images -- makes for mind-bending efforts to puzzle-out the date & place of each image:
St. Louis Globe Democrat Collection Home
or another version of the _Globe-Democrat_ collection:
Missouri Digital Heritage Collections : Browse
"...about Lindbergh ... his ability to stay awake. 33+ hours for the flight and he didn't sleep a wink the night before takeoff...."
And C.A.L. did this no-sleep drill repeatedly; eg his solo non-stop flight from Bolling Field to Mexico City, of Dec'13th 1927 was over 24 hours. [Reminds me of some early climbers willing to risk altitude-sickness just for the "record" of the first ascent.]BTW, for those interested in earlier flights of C.A.L. [C.A.M. Route #2], PHOTOGRAPHS from the defunct newspaper, the Saint Louis Globe-Democrat (a "backer" of the airplane "Spirit") are available on the "web". Almost all those digitized images from the 1920's are mislabeled, and many photos are mirror-images -- makes for mind-bending efforts to puzzle-out the date & place of each image:
St. Louis Globe Democrat Collection Home
or another version of the _Globe-Democrat_ collection:
Missouri Digital Heritage Collections : Browse
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Repetition is boring!
That is what is happening now and is enough. Use the search engine please.
I am leaving thread open for only a very short while since some cannot recognize that.
PPP
That is what is happening now and is enough. Use the search engine please.
I am leaving thread open for only a very short while since some cannot recognize that.
PPP
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Hinkler's brother used to tell people that Bert had a device rigged up from an alarm clock and which hung around his neck on long flights. If his chin started to drop it would trigger the alarm. He also took several thermos flasks of coffee whenever he went - and in 1927 was using caffeine tablets on his Princess Xenia flight with Hurricane Mac that resulted in a crash in Poland.
