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Endorsement on the 707 in 1959

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Endorsement on the 707 in 1959

Old 7th Apr 2010, 02:04
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Endorsement on the 707 in 1959

Hello all,
As foreshadowed here, below is the first installment of an account written by Capt NV St Leon regarding his experiences converting on to the B707-138 in July 1959.
I asked Val if I could post this - which first appeared in the Sydney branch newsletter of the Royal Aeronautical Society in February, following a talk on the subject late last year - after reading Regle's account of something similar with Sabena on the other thread.
Val was in the RAAF as a fitter in WWII and first joined Qantas as an engineer before remustering, but as he was not wartime aircrew I thought it would be better if this had its own seperate thread, with a link from the Military aircrew forum. Here goes then:

Endorsement Blues - Boeing 707/ 138, July 1959 - Val St Leon. Part I.
I was long term based in SFO from 1958 to 1961 as a Senior F/O, during which time a conversion to the B707/138 became necessary, consequently refresher technical courses for both gas turbines and the 138 were completed in Sydney. The original courses had been completed about 12 months previously. It was essential to train London and SFO groups first, to inaugurate the new jet services and it was a masterpiece of organization to replace them, and still maintain existing services. I was in the first group to train on VH-EBA to enable services to proceed across the USA to LHR.
There is no doubt the advent of the B707 changed our professional lives both in airmanship and career prospects and we approached the re-training with enthusiasm. The new jet fleet could achieve the same capacity and halve the flying time on existing route structure. An added bonus was reliability. During my five years on this type, only one engine failure was experienced while during eleven years on the Constellation types, one trip alone, to LHR and return showed five engine failures. Our F/Supt. Torchy Uren regretted its passing, saying “The Constellation was a fine 3 engined aeroplane”. We had been comfortable with Otto and his Cycle, Kermode’s Flight Without Formulae and Sutcliffe’s Meteorology but now, BHP and BMEP had disappeared from our mystique, we were resisting changes. Throttles had become “thrust levers”, lights were “illuminated”, fuel was “jettisoned” and not “dumped” and there were mysterious references to “Dutch Roll”, “the back side of the power curve”, “region of reverse command” and more frightening, “coffin corner”.
My last service on a Constellation L1049 (VH-EAC) was completed in the LH seat VCO-SFO, by courtesy of Capt Lyle Richardson, on 11/7/59. Training started immediately on arrival in Sydney on 17/7/59. The simulator was difficult with much emphasis on longitudinal stability and “runaway stabilizer” and “stab trim” with your right thumb. I emerged quite shaken from my first session having put the machine into SFO Bay at the San Mateo outer marker, being unable to control an aerodynamic problem called “Dutch Roll”. Kermode was not helpful. Later in 1969, “Handling the Big Jets” by David Davies FRAeS of the Air Registration Board would have helped, if it had been published in 1959. I was quite shaken and approached the American Boeing Instructors, Harley Beard, Russell Baum and Ed Hartz and asked them if the aircraft flew like the Simulator. Ed Hartz was a tall laconic Texan, who had flown B29s from Guam during WWII and Russell Baum, who later died, during a training accident, recovering from violent “dutch roll”. They had shaken two engine pods off and went into Lake Seattle. Pan American had already suffered a similar accident over France. In later years we always seemed to meet Harley Beard in various places, all over the world. All were fine instructional pilots, but with very little airline experience. Russell Baum replied, “Say Val, if we could get the ‘plane’ to fly as good as the simulator we would not be having any failures down at Avalon!” After further questioning, he told me, that the backside of the power curve meant, “putting on power to go slower!” Then I was convinced, I too would fail, as many were failing at Avalon.
Soon I was told I would be teamed up with Capt Ross Horne, an old friend and gifted pilot, as my “crash mate”. We were both considered somewhat eccentric, not playing golf and Ross had his own individual ideas about Qantas uniform dress code. Twenty hours in the simulator were completed adequately, if not brilliantly and we were passed on to Avalon Training with Capt Bill Edwards and F/O Tony Jennings from London on the 31/7/1959.
Fifty years had passed since Louis Bleriot flew across the Channel from France to Dover on 25/7/1909. Avalon training depot bore numerous nick names such as “Disney Land South” or more descriptively, as the “Bay of Pigs”. It had an atmosphere similar to the “crewing up politics” of an Operational Training Unit during wartime. On arrival, as we drove through the gates, we noted the single runway oriented due 359* N and 179* S with the windsock, horizontal from the west and gusting. “Be careful of the tigers” our driver remarked, and we noted 7 snake carcasses on the barbed wire fence. We checked in and were dismayed to find we were on the next training session with Ed Hartz. Outside, we watched VH EBA “dutch rolling” on final approach and we both blanched.Our session was about to start.
...more to follow!
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Old 7th Apr 2010, 08:39
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Excellent kookabat and thanks for posting! Looks to be another fascinating thread about flying at the start of the jet age.
Can I ask if we can bounce questions through you to Val?
I think a little expansion on things such as B707/138 would be helpful; there was a reference to a refresher course as the "original courses had been completed about twelve months previously" Could that be expanded, as if the original instruction was 12 months earlier, that might be an interesting aspect to compare against the reality a year later.....
Yes, I apologise to spelling it QUANTAS earlier, I know it stands for Queensland And Northern Territories Air Service, but it's hard not to put a "U" after a "Q"!
Finally, I want to get the joke in first (!!) FIVE engine failures in a Connie must have been interesting - where did you keep the fifth!!

Look forward to more
Cheers, Kevin
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Old 7th Apr 2010, 08:49
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Close Kevin, but no cigar.

Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services.
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Old 7th Apr 2010, 09:42
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Plus ça change!

Two decades later, I stumbled out of my first session - on the AA Boeing 707-123B sim in Dallas - also greatly chastened. My tussles with the stab trim had resulted in pitch oscillations of at least plus/minus five hundred feet! However, the kindly (and sadly long-deceased) training captain had seen it all before, and I survived to fly the real aeroplane. It proved to be much more docile, and with the 'B' series aerodynamic improvements - including most importantly the series yaw damper - it wasn't too much of a handful in a gusty crosswind.

Legend has it that the QANTAS 707 conversion course was a bit savage. I wait to see, in the next instalment, if the said Captain Hartz was the one who made candidates fly an approach with their heads out of the DV window. (The ever popular shattered windscreen scenario.)

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Old 7th Apr 2010, 11:10
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Kookabat

Yes, the training seems very similar and possibly mine was very much more concentrated into the Simulator . I also had used Kermode as my Bible and then actually had to learn the inner workings of formulae . About Connies,of which I had the happy experience of being allowed to land the one that took me as a passenger to become a Captain Instructor on the "Wickers Wikings" of Air India . The landing was at Cairo and in the circuit behind me was a "Connie" making a three engined landing and did'nt want priority. I spoke to the American pilot afterwards and he said " I have done so many that I can do them in my sleep ". All I can say is in Sabena for "Connie" read DC7c. It will be very interesting to me to see this thread as it transpires. Regle
 
Old 7th Apr 2010, 13:05
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Fantastic, we've pulled another B707 pilot out of the woodwork G-ALHI, more from you as well please!

Kevin - I've emailed Val again and forwarded your question to him; will post his response here.

I should note here that the text I am quoting is from the transcript of a number of talks given to the Sydney Branch of the Royal Aeronautical Society at the University of NSW in July 2009, on the 50th anniversary of Qantas receiving its first jet - VH-EBA, the airframe that is now at the Qantas Founders Museum in Longreach, Queensland. I may be able to dredge some more up from some of the other speakers on that night (once I've finished with Val's section).

For now, on with the program - here's Part II.

Endorsement Blues - Boeing 707/ 138, July 1959 by Capt Val St Leon. Part II.
VH-EBA was rolled off the line on 11/2/1959 at Renton with JT3C6 engines which gave 13,500 lbs thrust and was accepted as “City of Melbourne” on 7/6/1959. The delivery flight Seattle to Sydney took 18 hrs 34 minutes under command of Capt’s Bert Yates, with Ian Ralphe and Fred Fox.

Water injection for T/O was mandatory for heavy weights and due to smoke; its emission footprint was very high.

I was convinced during my training that the reduction in fuselage length on the 138 series had reduced steerage way in the event of an engine failure. As we passed V1, Ed Hartz failed an outboard engine at the Rotate call (Vr). I immediately applied full rudder (“dead engine dead foot”) and skimmed off the runway 30 degrees before V2 (safety speed) had been reached. I struggled to complete a square circuit. Ed smiled at me and said “How did you manage to do that, Val?” Words failed me and my right leg was twitching violently due to strain, when rudder trim was zeroed. I should have said that it wasn’t easy. Later a small ventral fin was added to aid steerage way, but care was then needed, as the 138 became somewhat geometry limited, should it be over rotated on Take Off.

Ed Hartz was a great instructor and thought we were doing well and handed us over at 11 hrs 10mins for final check to the Chief Flying Instructor, Eric Robinson, not noted for cheery conversation, or having read “The Art of Counting Rivets”. We both completed the “traps” instrument flying exercise quite well and returned via Diggers Rest for asymmetric approaches and landings. Ross was promptly failed on his first 3 engined landing and without getting in to the LH seat; I was told that I had failed also, “as you would be flying exactly the same as Ross!” We were both stunned and demurred only to be told that he thought “less than 12 hours, was insufficient for endorsement” and so another 2hrs.24mins went into our logbooks - at 6,000 pounds per hour - before final check-out at 13hrs 45mins.

Ross was always convinced that we had shaken the system by being presented for check-out before the average time. We departed Avalon on the 21/8/1959 and like the words from a song in South Pacific, “with a feeling of relief” to complete our route sectors. By the time our training was completed, Qantas had acquired VH-EB A, B, C, D and E.
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Old 7th Apr 2010, 15:26
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Early birds on 707's

Reading those early memories of the first run of the 707's makes me realise how lucky I was to come in with the second wave (Again!) when most of the really nasty snags had been painfully and sometimes fatally ironed out. When we first flew as captains, Sabena was still using the system of flying two captains together until the newer one had gained experience. I vividly remember one such occasion when the left hand Capt. was landing at Kennedy and I was in the right. It had been raining and the end of the runway was approaching at a high rate of knots. There was a N.Y. Police car at the very end on the taxi track and I could see startled white faces as we hurtled down on them. The Capt was busy with the throttles and I cut the "anti skid "and put the spoilers lever out even though we were below 80 kts. We came to a shuddering (us, not the aircraft ) halt inches from the end of the runway but the Police Car had left us for the marshes beyond and the police, still in complete shock, were hauled out to be given changes of underwear all round. That was my best lesson never to land too far down a runway in a 707. The sticking power was not there.

Last edited by regle; 7th Apr 2010 at 15:38.
 
Old 7th Apr 2010, 15:41
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Yes you can carry the

5th. engine ,in a 707 anyway, in a pod under the port wing ...to be used only when neccessary, of course. Reg
 
Old 7th Apr 2010, 16:59
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Ah Ha! Too much Top Gear and spotting the 747 in the background at Dunsfold!!
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Old 7th Apr 2010, 19:17
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There is stil G-RAAF at KIA which does the odd engine run. I do not know what marque it is or when if it ever leaves pilots can be found to fly it?

Where would it go? Sure miss the SEN QF model!
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Old 8th Apr 2010, 07:59
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Hello HZ123 and welcome to this thread about QANTAS and the 707 introduction into service....

Thank you for the link to G-RAAF, more info about this Spitfire VIII is here:
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation
Looks like they'll have to do something before 29th April to keep registration and licence active?

Apart from the RAAF registration, any other connection with this thread?
Perhaps you can tell us more about the Spit?

Looking at the acronym for the Owners, wouldn't a COMET thread be more appropriate?

Edit: OK, I cracked your cryptic link:

See: Qantas Boeing 707 Feature Report By UK Airshow Review

HZ123 is the current registration of
As Boeing 707-138 VH-EBA lifted off from Sydney's runway at 16:00 on 29 August 1959, bound for San Francisco, a new age dawned for the vast continent of Australia. Until that inaugural passenger flight the Antipodes had been days from anywhere, but in an instant that was reduced to hours as the jet age chalked up yet another milestone. Rolling out of Boeing's Renton plant on 11 February of that year and originally named 'City of Canberra' - within a few months changed to 'City of Melbourne' - serial number 17696 became the first jetliner Boeing ever sold to a foreign customer. It was also the first commercial jet to be exported out of the US, the first jet to be operated by QANTAS and registered in Australia, and is the oldest of this version still in existence, and potentially the oldest 707 flying.

Phil Whalley reports on the remarkable restoration of a true classic. Additional photography by Matt Lawrence.

Eight years of proudly sporting the kangaroo on its tail, and a similar period with Pacific Western Airlines was followed by an assortment of operators and uses, until finally being conscripted into the Royal Saudi Air Force for use by Prince Bandar, Saudi Ambassador to the USA. Registered as HZ-123 and with an interior fitted out as a luxury executive business jet, furnished in dark polished wood, with all the trimmings befitting the Prince, the 707 enjoyed a well-deserved rest from plying the passenger airways, taking on a more stately life befitting her age.
Couldn't you just say that? :0)

Last edited by Icare9; 8th Apr 2010 at 08:11.
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Old 8th Apr 2010, 10:06
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Is it me? kookabat, (and regle) looking forward to the next.
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Old 8th Apr 2010, 10:19
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I think the oldest B.O.A.C. guy to get a direct 707 command was John Varley who became C.F.I at Booker's British Airways Flying School / Club and later worked as an examiner at Blackbushe.

EDIT from private message: Hello there ... and what do you know of the late 'Ginger Tom' Varley? I thought he had a command on the Britannia, and the Argonaut before that?

Wasn't he caught running down a hotel corridor Harry Starkers whilst chasing a hostie? The River Tiber episode was another story told by B.O.A.C.'s Tony Gyselynck?

Last edited by Standby Scum; 8th Apr 2010 at 11:33.
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Old 9th Apr 2010, 03:19
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Email just in from Val, answering Kevin's question, plus a bit more:

Yes, it was a considerable strain to remember what we had been told in the initial Basic gas turbine and B707-138 technical courses which I completed in 1958 prior to posting to SFO and we did find that many things had changed or not emphasised. For instance, a red guarded switch allowed water to be used for T/O but this could not be reversed should you be held on the runway awaiting clearance. Remember we did not have "rolling starts" for some time and "spool up time" from a standing start created problems if an immediate T/O clearance was received.
We were in an "infancy" period of RPT operations which was not helped by long, complicated ATC clearances, which had to be read back. We developed an airman's shorthand , but one of our Capts (John Shields) had been a court reporter and his use of Pitman's shorthand was a great asset but many mistakes were made.
On one occasion on T/O at SFO, the water cutout as we passed Candlestick Park and we immediately sagged and just cleared the Gap (SFG) beacon.

2. With regard to the Constellation engine failures, these occurred as separate ocasions on a round trip to LHR from SYD and I never had a double engine failure, however they did occur, even on the B747-100 and 200, which were readily restarted by descending to 21,000'. A light "chop" of turbulence caused instability in steady state in the FCU leading to a flameout.

3. Of course theoretically, you could experience 5 engine failures at the one time should you be positioning and engine via the engine carrying "pod"!
He ends with an intriguing thought:
4. Isn't interesting that none of the airmen of those days has ever been honoured with an award from the Order of Australia?
Val then sent another email with another interesting tidbit:
By the way, on engine failures, we did a number of "three engined" ferry flights as replacement engines were not positioned at every refuelling stop should a failure occur. These flights had to be approved by DCA, also the Captain. I have an image of a 3 Engined L 749 Constellation landing.
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Old 9th Apr 2010, 08:22
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Many thanks kookabat and please pass them on to Val!
Point 2 about 5 engined Connies was, of course, tongue in cheek.
Look forward to more in due course

I did think that HZ123 had misposted about G-RAAF on the wrong thread, but did find a link, hope that clears things up a little for you, Mr forget!!
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Old 13th Apr 2010, 01:33
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Here's the last part from Val's talk. He tells me he has some further talks he's done that he will try to get copies of to me at some point... you'll see them here when he does.

For now, Part Three (of three):

Endorsement Blues - Boeing 707/ 138, July 1959 by Capt Val St Leon. Part III.
My First/Officer sectors were on VH-EBE with Captain Bert Yates and Captain Bill Edwards, and F/O Tony Jennings with Jim Brough as the DCA examiner. These sectors as a proving flight without Pax, were:- SEA-SFO-NY-Gander-Keflavik (go around) divert-Prestwick-LHR and totaled 22.42mins. Our Navigator was Greg Parsons, who now leads the Pathfinder group on Anzac Day. On return, to Gander, we all bought a bottle of very potent local alcohol
called “Screech.”

On the third jet commercial service with Captain John Shields, VH-EAB on 1/10/1959 SFO-NY, Leaving Idlewild, (now Kennedy) for SFO on 3/10/1959, we could not retract the gear. John handed the aircraft over to me so as he could supervise, and I soon noted that I was applying more and more aileron to stay level as we started to jettison fuel off the coast on a designated VOR radial, to get down to landing weight.
The F/E, Bill Middler called “we are jettisoning fuel, only from the left (port) wing, both chutes have not extended”. This made the aircraft very difficult to fly and we never managed to extend the RH (starboard) dump chute.
However, we stayed in the air 1hr 50mins to reach landing weight only to find a gathering of hundreds as we arrived on chocks. There had been an accident with a 707 at Idlewild a few days previously and the runway had been invaded by many curious onlookers. During our problem, there had been a news flash on air that another 707 was in trouble.
When we disembarked, a large number of reporters and onlookers were gathered at the foot of the steps. John Shields, always impeccably dressed, wore a handkerchief up his LH sleeve, and having attended to this matter, handed me a cigar, lit one himself and said “We must appear nonchalant, Val!” and we descended like movie stars to be interviewed.

Stirring days. Footnote: In retrospect, while it was difficult to fly, the B707/138 by default, made us better pilots and we coped with a myriad of problems which were reflected in many changes to fuel policy, training and simulators. It did nothing to alleviate our industrial problems, and in fact
probably increased them.
My feelings with regard to the B707/338c and B747/100 and 200, were completely different as they were both delightful aircraft to fly. We must have learned a lot as my check-out time on the B747, after simulator was only 5 hours followed by 6 sectors. The 138 had taught us all about wind shear and micro-bursts.

Most of those I have mentioned in this memoire have passed on and tonight I pay homage to them, particularly our engineering staff, they were giants of the industry and Qantas was very well served by their dedication and airmanship. Those us who have enjoyed the art, science and fellowship of a wonderful industry, are always mindful of our critics, particularly the financiers.

So, I leave you with the wit and wisdom of Warren Buffet. Aviation, According to Warren Buffett, circa 1999 ‘The other truly transforming business invention of the first quarter of the century, besides the car, was the airplane – another industry whose plainly brilliant future would have caused investors to salivate. So I went back to check airline manufacturers and found that in the 1919-1939 period there were about 300 companies with only a handful still breathing today.
Now move on to the failure of airlines
and we find a list of 129 airlines that in the past 20 years filed for bankruptcy. The money that had been made since the dawn of aviation by all of this country’s airline companies was ZERO. Absolutely ZERO.
Sizing all this up, I like to think that if I had been at Kittyhawk in 1903 when Orville Wright took off, I would have been far sighted enough and public spirited enough, because I owed this to future capitalists – to shoot him down. I mean Karl Marx couldn’t have done as much damage to capitalists as Orville did.’

Any way – my point is that if a private equity firm wants to buy an airline…..good luck to them! A little prescient?

Thank you.

Capt Val St Leon
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Old 13th Apr 2010, 14:42
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707 early days

After passing the Sabena oral examination and undergoing the very thorough dual training with one of the most well liked people in Sabena, Bobby Laumans , which consisted of 13 hours of dual and included stalls under all configurations, 3 and 2 engined flying and landings, Jammed stabiliser landings, Emergency descent, "tuck under" (don't ask me what I did to recover from that. Suggestions welcomed ! !) ,3 engined take offs , recovery from the dreaded "Dutch Roll", so called from the attitudes of the Dutch ice speed skaters bent low and alternately swinging their arms from side to side (Luckily the "yaw damper" and the added ventral fin had made the 707 much safer by now) and officially having the 707 on my licence I had a short period as Co-Captain flying as First Officer to the more experienced Captains. If it taught me anything it made me more lenient to my future First Officers as I found out anew what a heart breaking , tedious and in those days, non flying, situations as the process of letting the F/O do half the takeoffs and landings was unheard of in Sabena. It was later that the Company rightly insisted that this should happen much to the dismay of some of the older pre-war Captains who were still around. I flew my first flight as a full Captain in my own right on April 28th. 1964. It was to Montreal then on Mexico where you had four days of rest and Acapulco to enjoy then back via Montreal to Brussels. Having two Captains on board was supposed to allow you to do the obvious, nowadays, vast duty time ("prestation" as the Belgians always called it.).
I found an enormous difference between the 707 and all the other aircraft that I had flown. The difference mainly consisted of having, at your fingertips, more power than you actually needed. The rate of climb was phenomenal and especially when you were lightly loaded, needed a lot of getting used to as you could quite easily overshoot your required altitude. The acceleration on takeoff was much slower but it increased all the time so that you had to retard the throttles whereas your piston engine was always limited and acceleration actually decreased from the very quick start. The very slight but important lag in reaction to your throttle adjustments was another factor to remember but the most important one was the distance that you were in the cockpit, ahead of the landing wheels and because of this the much greater height that the nose, on landing, was ahead of them. In the early days there were numerous cases of 707's landing short of the runway as the pilot had closed the throttles as he came over the threshold forgetting that his wheels were still in the next county. Landings had to be made much more positive due to the 707's unwillingness to stay on the ground , the theory was that the "cushioning " effect" caused by the compression of the air trapped between the wings and the ground as the 707 descended was trapped longer than usual due to the design and gave it the lack of positive contact that was most notable on wet runways.
I suppose that all this seems very strange to a generation that has been weaned on jets and has little or no experience of prop jobs but I was 44 when I first flew a modern jet and had logged 14,500 hours all on piston engined aircraft and did not ever even dream that I would fly another 10,600 on this magnificent "new" invention of the vastly under recognised Group Captain Whittle. It was , for me, the dawn of a new and very exciting era. Regle

Last edited by regle; 14th Apr 2010 at 09:59. Reason: repetition
 

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