The Britannia
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The Britannia
Merely a reminder that rear facing pax seats CAN still be seen. All you have to do is to be at Kemble on either the first or third Sunday each month between 1230 and 1600 and the members of the Britannia Preservation Trust who lovingly look after the former Royal Air Force Transport Command Britannia XM496, will welcome you on board.
No boarding cards necessary
No boarding cards necessary
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Brittania
Yep, did that last August on a Sunday and I was warmly welcomed. I'd never been inside a RAF Brit before and the seats struck me as unusual, so much so that I had a picture taken of me sitting in one of them. As luck would have it however, weather was dull, so my external shots could have looked better. Also visited the Bristol museum at Kemble the same day-not bad at all.
Just wonder how many lives would have been saved over the years if rearward facing seats were the norm. The BM 737 crash at Kegworth is a case in point. I spent my whole RAF career flying backwards, either as a passenger on Brits,etc, or as a nav on Victors and even now it seems a bit odd sitting "facing the engine".
Rearward facing seats - RAF Brits
Here's what they looked like in RAF service (from a Bristol Aircraft brochure handed out at the 1961 Paris Air Show where I was with the RAF Brit (XL 660) on static display). Two crews from 511 and 99 Sqn were at Paris for the show. 511 flew XL 660 out, we (99 Sqn) flew it back.
Cabin looking forward
Cabin looking aft
Medevac Layout
XL 660 on Show in Paris (Le Bourget) - 24 May - 5 June 1961
Lots of other RAF aircraft on show including a Vulcan, Victor, Argosy, Javelin. Others flew in the air display but are not shown here.
Here's what they looked like in RAF service (from a Bristol Aircraft brochure handed out at the 1961 Paris Air Show where I was with the RAF Brit (XL 660) on static display). Two crews from 511 and 99 Sqn were at Paris for the show. 511 flew XL 660 out, we (99 Sqn) flew it back.
Cabin looking forward
Cabin looking aft
Medevac Layout
XL 660 on Show in Paris (Le Bourget) - 24 May - 5 June 1961
Lots of other RAF aircraft on show including a Vulcan, Victor, Argosy, Javelin. Others flew in the air display but are not shown here.
Last edited by Warmtoast; 28th Feb 2010 at 20:14.
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The Britannia
If you want a good laugh involving a Britannia in a film, then have a look at this:
YouTube - "Aeronaves de Mexico Bristol Britannia"-1959
YouTube - "Aeronaves de Mexico Bristol Britannia"-1959
Anyone recall / participated in a Cranwell ‘expedition’ to the USA in 1965’ish. Two Britannia’s visited Washington via Gander, Norfolk, Omaha, and Colorado Springs – with a bit of an airshow? Return via New York and Gander.
IIRC one aircraft had a gear problem and the Atlantic leg was flown gear down.
The USAF could not understand the rearward facing seats.
IIRC one aircraft had a gear problem and the Atlantic leg was flown gear down.
The USAF could not understand the rearward facing seats.
Cunning Artificer
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Rear facing seats would not have saved many lives. In a high energy impact accident the seats would have broken away from the rails (they're only "9g" seats after all) and instead of being smashed head first into the seat in front, passengers would have had the seat behind smash into their face instead. Either way, all the seats end up in a pile of assorted bits of shredded aluminium alloy and smouldering upholstery. Surviving an accident is a matter of luck, whichever way you're facing. Smoke hoods under the seat would be a far better safety enhancement, but no-one has ever fitted them so far.
Nemesis of the Proot Dynasty
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Britannia Engine Starting
This thread reminds me of my first posting overseas to Cyprus. I was young and green and worked on TASF (Transit Aircraft Servicing Flight). One morning, I was sent out to the pan with the rest of the ground crew, to send off a Britannia transiting from Lyneham to Hong Kong. The chief of the ground crew saw me wandering around with my hands in my pockets and sent me to engine three.
"On start up, just hold the prop until the engine pulls it out of your hand and walk away".
I looked at him incredulously.
"You want me to do WHAT?" He repeated his instructions.
"Fu** Off!" says I, for which I got 3 days jankers.
I also got to hold said prop. I had visions of being shot like a projectile over to Limassol. In the event, it turned out to be the standard operating procedure, especially if the wind was turning the prop (gently) in the opposite direction to normal rotation.
And you really did wait until the engine had started, let it pull the prop out of your hand and walk away!!
"On start up, just hold the prop until the engine pulls it out of your hand and walk away".
I looked at him incredulously.
"You want me to do WHAT?" He repeated his instructions.
"Fu** Off!" says I, for which I got 3 days jankers.
I also got to hold said prop. I had visions of being shot like a projectile over to Limassol. In the event, it turned out to be the standard operating procedure, especially if the wind was turning the prop (gently) in the opposite direction to normal rotation.
And you really did wait until the engine had started, let it pull the prop out of your hand and walk away!!
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The Whispering Giant
Used to be in ATC at BZZ and watching wet starts on the Brits was spectacular. Did the long trip to Akrotiri and onwards to Masirah looking at where I've been.
Ah! them were the days.
Ah! them were the days.
Cranwell-USA
I was on that trip - 1965, to Washington, Colorado Springs and two days R & R in New York. They even took some of the Americam cadets "mountain flying" in Colorado. Sadly my two hosts were killed in Viet Nam, and biggest finger wag at the briefing was "Don't mention the Selma (civil rights) march".
Blacksheep
Thre's an interesting article where the advantages of rearward facing seats were put forward. The article entitled “On Going Forward Backwards” appeared in Flight Magazine for 16th July 1954 here:
1954 | 2070 | Flight Archive
This inter-alia states:
There is also a historical article about the US Navy adopting rearward facing seats here:
http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/back...1952/dec52.pdf
Rear facing seats would not have saved many lives
1954 | 2070 | Flight Archive
This inter-alia states:
…………..The advantages claimed for the aft-facing seat can be summed up very simply. A large majority of casualties in aircraft accidents result from the deceleration produced by impact with die ground, varying from, say, lg in a smooth belly-landing and 20-40g in more severe crashes leaving the fuselage wholly or partly intact. Properly supported, the human frame can withstand the highest deceleration likely to be encountered in any crash which is basically “survivable” — one in which complete crushing, burning or disintegration of the fuselage does not occur. Protagonists of the backward-facing seat maintain that this is the best method of providing such protection because (a) it places a shield between the body and the most likely sources of injury and (b) because the back of the human body is stronger than the front. Expressed in its simplest terms, the argument for the aft-facing seat is that in any given set of circumstances it is safer than the forward-facing seat.
Evidence to support this theory is convincing but by no means conclusive from a technical viewpoint. Indeed, as no two accidents can be identical in their nature, it is difficult to see how conclusive proof could ever be obtained. Essential details of the major accidents to aircraft equipped with backward-facing seats are as follows:
On December 20th, 1950, an R.A.F. Hastings crashed at Benina after an airscrew blade had torn into the fuselage, severely injuring one of the crew and jamming the elevator and rudder controls. While attempting to land on two engines it undershot and crashed heavily. All five members of the crew were killed (a point which indicates the severity of the impact without necessarily affecting the seating controversy), but the 26 passengers, who, with one exception, were in 15g rearward-facing seats, escaped without serious injury. On February 18th, 1951, an R.A.F. Valetta crashed into a wooded hill near Stockholm during a single-engined overshoot in bad visibility. One of the crew of three was killed and all 18 passengers, in 20g rearward-facing seats, escaped with minor injuries. Another Valetta crashed near Boscombe Down on November 25th, 1952, after being in collision with a Venom. The nine passengers (paratroops) stepped out of their rearward facing seats unhurt, and the crew of four all received injuries. In a third Valetta accident, at Lyneham, on January 20th this year, one of the crew of five was killed and four injured; the six passengers, all in aft-facing seats, received only very slight injuries.
Both theory and practice, then, show that there is a strong case for fitting rearward-facing seats in transport aircraft.
Evidence to support this theory is convincing but by no means conclusive from a technical viewpoint. Indeed, as no two accidents can be identical in their nature, it is difficult to see how conclusive proof could ever be obtained. Essential details of the major accidents to aircraft equipped with backward-facing seats are as follows:
On December 20th, 1950, an R.A.F. Hastings crashed at Benina after an airscrew blade had torn into the fuselage, severely injuring one of the crew and jamming the elevator and rudder controls. While attempting to land on two engines it undershot and crashed heavily. All five members of the crew were killed (a point which indicates the severity of the impact without necessarily affecting the seating controversy), but the 26 passengers, who, with one exception, were in 15g rearward-facing seats, escaped without serious injury. On February 18th, 1951, an R.A.F. Valetta crashed into a wooded hill near Stockholm during a single-engined overshoot in bad visibility. One of the crew of three was killed and all 18 passengers, in 20g rearward-facing seats, escaped with minor injuries. Another Valetta crashed near Boscombe Down on November 25th, 1952, after being in collision with a Venom. The nine passengers (paratroops) stepped out of their rearward facing seats unhurt, and the crew of four all received injuries. In a third Valetta accident, at Lyneham, on January 20th this year, one of the crew of five was killed and four injured; the six passengers, all in aft-facing seats, received only very slight injuries.
Both theory and practice, then, show that there is a strong case for fitting rearward-facing seats in transport aircraft.
There is also a historical article about the US Navy adopting rearward facing seats here:
http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/back...1952/dec52.pdf
Rearward-Facing Seats
Rearward-Facing Seats-my memory (dim and distant) is that a rearward facing seat can be engineerd to withstand higher g-loading than a forward facing seat because the occupant is better restrained, hence the higher chance of surviving if facing aft
I was going to post the story of Hastings TG574 and how rearward facing seats saved everyone in the back, but that is too much of thread drift away from the Britannia.
I have therefore started a new thread.
It is a wonderful story of amazing airmanship so please read it.
I have therefore started a new thread.
It is a wonderful story of amazing airmanship so please read it.
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The Britannia
Here's a photo I took at a Biggin Hill air fair, in May 1974, of an IAS Britannia. There was also an Air Spain machine present-you can see it just behind the IAS machine, but my photo of that is too poor to show here.
JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-AOVS (CN: 13430) IAS Cargo Airlines Bristol Britannia Series 312F by Michael Blank
JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-AOVS (CN: 13430) IAS Cargo Airlines Bristol Britannia Series 312F by Michael Blank
Last edited by Proplinerman; 8th Mar 2010 at 20:33.
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Biggin Hill Britannias
. . .And I was there! I am probably one of the 13 year old boys decked out in a beige nylon polo shirt with brown slacks you can see kicking the tyres. We picniced near the two Brits during the Air Show. Amazing to think that one could just walk around these whispering giants un-checked. Note lack of graffiti/tagging!
Getting back on track, I'd love to hear from anyone who flew the RAF Britannias post-RAF i.e. with the likes of Aer Turas, Geminair, Air Faisal, Young Cargo etc etc.
Mike, thanks for sharing the photo..
Mike Z
Getting back on track, I'd love to hear from anyone who flew the RAF Britannias post-RAF i.e. with the likes of Aer Turas, Geminair, Air Faisal, Young Cargo etc etc.
Mike, thanks for sharing the photo..
Mike Z
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Circuit bashing in the Brit was no joke - especially if you were in the last seat at the back. The rear fuselage corkscrewed around like a maniac. That coupled with the smell of the dunnies was enough to make you want to reach for the puke bag.
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The Britannia
". . .And I was there! I am probably one of the 13 year old boys decked out in a beige nylon polo shirt with brown slacks you can see kicking the tyres. We picniced near the two Brits during the Air Show."
Thanks for that Mike. I was 16 then and I'm pretty sure that I took that photo very shortly after getting off our "Norwag" coach very close to the Brit's. I also remember walking a very long way airside. "Norwag" was the North West Aviation Group: anyone else here remember them and Eric Rowell?
The photos I took that day were amongst the earliest I took on my first reasonably decent camera-a Ricoh 500G-that my father had bought me a short time before. Sad to say, I can't remember anything of the display that day.
Thanks for that Mike. I was 16 then and I'm pretty sure that I took that photo very shortly after getting off our "Norwag" coach very close to the Brit's. I also remember walking a very long way airside. "Norwag" was the North West Aviation Group: anyone else here remember them and Eric Rowell?
The photos I took that day were amongst the earliest I took on my first reasonably decent camera-a Ricoh 500G-that my father had bought me a short time before. Sad to say, I can't remember anything of the display that day.