Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris - Butch or Butcher?
Thread Starter
Hugh Spencer - 61 Squadron
Hugh - thanks again for confirming my belief, at the start of this thread, that Harris was never called 'Butcher'. You have my utmost respect for your time in Bomber Command in those terrible times.
A relative of my wife, a mid-upper gunner called Len Millar, was among your old squadron's losses in July 1942. He's buried in Belgium.
Hugh - thanks again for confirming my belief, at the start of this thread, that Harris was never called 'Butcher'. You have my utmost respect for your time in Bomber Command in those terrible times.
A relative of my wife, a mid-upper gunner called Len Millar, was among your old squadron's losses in July 1942. He's buried in Belgium.
Last edited by XV490; 9th Jul 2010 at 10:33.
I recall reading "Butch's" official Dispatch at the end of WW2 [ I think it's in one of his biographies] in which he said that we would never again see the mass bombing raids of that war - future wars would be more likely conducted by men with bombs in suitcases. How prescient was that!?
My dad (Halifax F/E) usually refers to Arthur Harris as "Butch" meaning butcher but with the subject of the butchery being the aircrew not the Germans. It is meant as a term of endearment in the usual Brit black humoured way.
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Harris was right
I'm far too 'young' to have served in WWII, but I've had the honour of working with the late Ray Grayston ( Dam Buster Flight Engineer ) and other bomber pilots inc' Halifaxes etc - naturally all thought their aircraft type was the best.
I've always thought that I'd fancy my chance wazzing around in a fighter, but it took REAL GUTS to sit in a bomber formation.
I'd have reacted exactly as Harris did; we didn't have Paveways,( and claims for bomb sighting such as the Nordern were rather optimistic ) -and have a look around Portsmouth & Plymouth not to mention Coventry - very little of the old cities left thanks to Goering's lot; and thanks to British decoys I'm walking on Luftwaffe bombs whenever I work on my boat's mooring...
As Basil Fawlty said, " You started it ! "
I've always thought that I'd fancy my chance wazzing around in a fighter, but it took REAL GUTS to sit in a bomber formation.
I'd have reacted exactly as Harris did; we didn't have Paveways,( and claims for bomb sighting such as the Nordern were rather optimistic ) -and have a look around Portsmouth & Plymouth not to mention Coventry - very little of the old cities left thanks to Goering's lot; and thanks to British decoys I'm walking on Luftwaffe bombs whenever I work on my boat's mooring...
As Basil Fawlty said, " You started it ! "
Last edited by Double Zero; 11th Jul 2010 at 18:42.
Thread Starter
'Butch' was no 'butcher'
Journalist and author Leo McKinstry, in his 2009 book on the Lancaster, quotes another veteran as exploding the myth that Harris was ever called 'Butcher' (in addition to ex-61 Sqn crewman Hugh Spencer earlier in this thread). But the book does reveal that Mrs Harris called her husband 'Bud'...
Needless to say, I never heard back from Mr Marr, but wish him well with his continuing recovery.
Needless to say, I never heard back from Mr Marr, but wish him well with his continuing recovery.
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The World at War. Episode12. "Whirlwind: Bombing Germany"
Uncreditted comments before theme tune and opening credits:
"If you couldn't get the Kraut in his factory, it was just as easy to knock him off in his bed, and if old granny Shucklegruber in the next street got the chop, that's hard luck"
Marvellous stuff !
Uncreditted comments before theme tune and opening credits:
"If you couldn't get the Kraut in his factory, it was just as easy to knock him off in his bed, and if old granny Shucklegruber in the next street got the chop, that's hard luck"
Marvellous stuff !
My former girlfriend's uncle was an engine fitter in the RAF during the 2nd WW,sadly he died about 10 years ago.But he told me that,along with a rigger,he was detached to a small airfield at Lacey Green in Buckinghamshire,where they were billeted in a farmhouse.They were sent there to look after a couple of light aircraft provided for the use of Arthur Harris,firstly an Auster,and then a Stinson (Reliant ?) 'given' to him by the Americans.They did daily inspecions,refuelling and prop-swinging when required My uncle,for that is what I called him was also required to fly with Harris at times to carry out similar tasks at the destination.But also he sometimes travelled with him in his car.He told of one occasion when they were travelling rather quickly around the back lanes at night,when they were flagged down by the police,The policeman cautioned Harris,and said that if he continued to drive in that manner he would end up killing someone! Wherupon Harris drew himself up and said "Constable, MY JOB IS TO KILL PEOPLE"
After D-day he went over to europe,presumably to carry on with his duties there,and at one stage was billeted in the stables at versailles,where his job was to dismanle a V1 flying bomb for
shipment back to the UK.
After D-day he went over to europe,presumably to carry on with his duties there,and at one stage was billeted in the stables at versailles,where his job was to dismanle a V1 flying bomb for
shipment back to the UK.
Last edited by ex82watcher; 6th Jan 2019 at 08:39.
Some of those with whom I once attended a dinner in Dresden hosted by Elbeflugzeugwerke some 60 years after the appalling destruction of their city had, shall we say, 'other' names for Harris...
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My father was in Nightfighters for 4.5 years. Starting in Bostons, then Beaufighters with the earliest airborne radar and then Mosquitos. He and his pilot worshipped Harris to their last breath but both died before the monument in Green Park was finally made. The father of one my best friends was in the Hitler Youth because that was how it was and he lost family in Dresden. My father did go to Dresden - but not on that particular big raid.
His parents died in October 1944 when a V2 landed on their surburban house five miles south of Heathrow. So my father did what had to be done with what they had. Yet my father had a lot of sympathy for the German people and how they had been lied to and bad things done in their name - just as over here and in all wars and continues to this day. For father and his pilot, Harris was second in importance only to the King and he was always bitter how the politicians threw him to the dogs and did not give him the credit for his work, the way other commanders were. He did what he was asked to do. They also had huge respect for the Luftwaffe and, in the 1980s, became friends with a German Night Fighter pilot.
My father and his pilot did 3.5 tours, some 105 operations (without looking it up in his log books) and they both became DFC and three bars.
My father's pilot stayed on, gained the DSO and rose to Air Commodore.
It was war and the first victim of war is always??.
His parents died in October 1944 when a V2 landed on their surburban house five miles south of Heathrow. So my father did what had to be done with what they had. Yet my father had a lot of sympathy for the German people and how they had been lied to and bad things done in their name - just as over here and in all wars and continues to this day. For father and his pilot, Harris was second in importance only to the King and he was always bitter how the politicians threw him to the dogs and did not give him the credit for his work, the way other commanders were. He did what he was asked to do. They also had huge respect for the Luftwaffe and, in the 1980s, became friends with a German Night Fighter pilot.
My father and his pilot did 3.5 tours, some 105 operations (without looking it up in his log books) and they both became DFC and three bars.
My father's pilot stayed on, gained the DSO and rose to Air Commodore.
It was war and the first victim of war is always??.
At the height of the Battle of Britain, my grandmother, aunt ( who was a young child at the time) and great aunts, waved to what they thought was a Spitfire returning to its nearby base. It was in fact a 109 at tree top height. It proceeded to fire at them, they all got wedged in the door as they ran inside. Bits of house flying off all around them. They were shocked and bruised but other wise unharmed. It then proceeded to shoot up the local bus. Soon after my great uncle joined the RAF from a deferred occupation. He lost his life some 2 years later in the service of Bomber Command aged 22. As Harris stated, 'they sowed the wind....'
Last edited by rolling20; 7th Jan 2019 at 13:18.
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" Elbeflugzeugwerke some 60 years after the appalling destruction of their city had, shall we say, 'other' names for Harris... "
To which you should have replied: 'Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, Baedeker raids ...'
You shouldn't really start something you can't finish.
To which you should have replied: 'Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, Baedeker raids ...'
You shouldn't really start something you can't finish.
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To draw back from the specifics of this war: We must bear in mind that this is what human beings (us) do and have always done. As technology has changed, so we have used it to wage nastier war. Human beings are highly tribal animals and have always maimed, tortured and killed their neighbour.
What has really changed is that, by WW2, photography (still + movie) and sound recording had advanced greatly. As has been stated in this thread, the memory of WW1 was clear in the mind (both my grandfathers were involved, one was at the Battle of Jutland and the other flying SE5a's) and the terrible events of the first ensured better reporting of the second.
Technology, aircraft in particular, enabled a new kind of war and so humans made a new kind of war. Just as they continue to do so today. Lots of 'smart' bombs and missiles kill civilians, by accident or design.
What has really changed is that, by WW2, photography (still + movie) and sound recording had advanced greatly. As has been stated in this thread, the memory of WW1 was clear in the mind (both my grandfathers were involved, one was at the Battle of Jutland and the other flying SE5a's) and the terrible events of the first ensured better reporting of the second.
Technology, aircraft in particular, enabled a new kind of war and so humans made a new kind of war. Just as they continue to do so today. Lots of 'smart' bombs and missiles kill civilians, by accident or design.
The horrors of WW1 influenced the thinking and policies of politicians and military commanders in WW2. Londoners were terrified by Zeppelin attacks in the first war, even though the airships' destructive effort was a tiny fraction of what was to come a quarter of a century later. The Londoners' anger was compounded by the apparent ineffectiveness of the RFC and the RNAS in intercepting the invaders. The main problems were the inadequate performance and weapons of the defending aircraft and the lack of experience of their pilots, because superior aircraft and experienced pilots were being dispatched to what were considered more important theatres of fighting. On the night of 25 April 1916 a young pilot was sent up from Hounslow aerodrome to find and attack a Zepp sighted over northeast London, the LZ97, commanded by Hauptmann Linnarz. The pilot reported that he got to within 2000 feet of the airship but after opening fire his gun jammed. His name was Captain Arthur Harris, RFC.
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Wow!! Thanks Discord, that is a fascinating piece of information.
As we know, the agressor usually has the upper hand and it can take a long time to overreach them - as we see in each new battle and war to this day. The attack on NYC in 2001 beiing a classic example.
As we know, the agressor usually has the upper hand and it can take a long time to overreach them - as we see in each new battle and war to this day. The attack on NYC in 2001 beiing a classic example.
My father did a tour (Halifaxes from Topcliffe, Yorkshire), and would be dismayed at the attitude shown to Harris nowadays. Like so many at the time, his own father had been killed in the WW1 trenches. It does give you another view on things. Subsequently he was on Dakotas in Burma. There has never been any of this negativity against the campaign there.
There was an extremely straightforward task, and that was to win against an extraordinary aggressor who had galvanised his whole country likewise against most of the countries of Europe. Bear in mind everything done was with the approval of Churchill and the Government, Harris was not the ultimate decision maker.
There was an extremely straightforward task, and that was to win against an extraordinary aggressor who had galvanised his whole country likewise against most of the countries of Europe. Bear in mind everything done was with the approval of Churchill and the Government, Harris was not the ultimate decision maker.
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One of the original problems experienced by the allies when it came to shooting down Zeppelins was the conventional bullet just passed through the airship, causing minor leaks but no significant damage, when an incendiary element was added to the ammunition the end of the airship, as a weapon of war, was spelled out.
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Last Friday I was talking to a, now, elderly woman who was a child in the East End during the war. She spoke about the morning they emerged from the shelter and found that more than half their school had been destroyed. Lucky it was a night time raid and that it was not being used as a shelter. Both sides wanted the war to end quickly.
