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The Fighter Collection

Old 21st Oct 2009, 11:23
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The Fighter Collection

What is happening at Duxford? The CAA has been refusing to issue Permits To Fly for most of this year. Paperwork audit issues not safety related. How can a couple of CAA surveyors, probably not well versed in the problems of keeping these old aircraft airworthy, be allowed to crucify our aviation Heritage?
Presumably they will next have a go at the ARC.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 13:12
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Not surprising really

Don't you know what CAA stands for in the UK?

"CAMPAIGN AGAINST AVIATION"
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 15:14
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I disagree, I believe we have the best aviation safety record in the world - if the paperwork is not in order how can the CAA be assured evey thing else is? - They're only doing the job the are paid for.
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Old 21st Oct 2009, 20:33
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I disagree, I believe we have the best aviation safety record in the world - if the paperwork is not in order how can the CAA be assured evey thing else is? - They're only doing the job the are paid for.

Deltapapa

Of course they have the best safety record in the world!!!!!!!! they don't let anything fly, remember when the "weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the aeroplane its ready to fly"
They are trying so hard to keep their jobs, because come EASA guess what old boy's network down the pan and they can't do anything about it, I can't wait bunch of muppets.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 08:19
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If, and I repeat IF, there is a problem with the paperwork that is the fault of the Fighter Collection NOT the CAA. Everyone who operates and/or maintains aircraft has to keep their records properly - and they should know exactly what that entails as it is very clearly laid down by the CAA.

What some of you seem to be saying is that it is all right to fly a Spitfire without proper paperwork. Would you say the same of a 737 with 150 pax on board?
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 11:31
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It seems that [from various sources] that the CAA and the TFC, to cut a long and probably not very accurate story, p...ed each other off, with much table thumping etc., CAA got shirty and removed Permits to Fly.
It would appear [allegedly] that there were paperwork issues, although, not being particularly mechanically minded, I always [and still do] believe that everything is above board, but there were admin errors.
In July I spoke to someone very senior in TFC who informed me that the problems would be resolved, but it would take time [and no doubt money] I understand that the tail has to come off the Corsair to check the validity of a bearing, and that is just one of many aeroplanes.
Recently I spoke to a representative of TFC and he said we would know when the problems are overcome, because they would be flying again. In the meantime, the P.51 and the Sea Fury continue to fly, as they are on the American Register.
I hope for all enthusiasts sake that this is resolved, because Mr Gray[Grey]?? has spent a vast amount of time and money on his collection, so that we all have the huge pleasure of seeing these superb piston engine fighters in the air. I, for one, am full of admiration for his efforts.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 20:32
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I believe your not a million miles off the mark however there does seem to be almost a vendetta being carried out by the CAA dept involved. I understand that in some instances paperwork is being sort on work and repairs to the aircraft often from 10, 20, 30 or more years ago, often long before TFC took ownership of the aircraft. Apparently there is no time limit as to how far back the CAA can look. How many of us have an aeroplane with a patch or a repaired dint that was done prior to your ownership that you have no paperwork to cover?
The Head of this CAA dept is certainly earning a reputation - I wont say what for.
I wish TFC all the best in resolving these issues, other organisations are aware.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 21:06
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TFC put them all on a foreign registry say USA you proved it with the P51 etc they can't get involved
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 18:39
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Hi, Fastjet. I don't believe that it is possible to do what you suggest, as, being registered in Britain, paperwork has to be in order before transferring to another country's register. I think TFC seriously upset CAA., and it's just them [CAA] being very vindictive, tho' I don't know all the facts.
P51 and Sea Fury were already on the US register, having been imported from there to here.

Last edited by JEM60; 23rd Oct 2009 at 18:42. Reason: Addition
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 19:53
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The ex-military aircraft scene is mature in the UK and the A8-20 approval together with the operational requirements in CAP 632 is widely recognised and respected as an acceptable minimum level of requirements to ensure safe operations of probably the largest number of ex military aircraft in Europe.

These requirements have been developed over many years by the CAA with close industry participation to ensure that we can continue to enjoy these wonderful aircraft in the dynamic sense rather than as static museum pieces. I do not no know what the issues are with the TFC at this time but I find it disappointing, however not unexpected, that once again without any evidence the CAA stands accused of being vindictive and the old cliché of Campaign Against Aviation is given yet another airing.

UK has reached an acceptable level of safety in the operation of ex-military aircraft by an appropriate level of compliance with requirements by organisations and operators balanced by an appropriate level of regulation.

When an organisation seeks approval or the renewal of their Permits they need to establish compliance with their side of regulatory requirements. If they cannot do that then it is not unreasonable for the CAA to require them to do so before they issue the requested certificate.

To imply that CAA "gets seriously upset" shows a lack of understanding on their function. The CAA is an accountable public body and their decisions can be appealed by any person directly affected by their decisions if they believe the the CAA is not exercising their powers correctly.

Emotive comments will not compensate for safe regulatory practice by industry and the regulator.
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 10:04
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I agree with you, Happybiker. I did'nt mean to imply that the CAA shouldn't be doing their job, of course they should, and the TFC should be 100 per cent accurate with their procedures and paperwork. It just seems that there is a particular lack of co-operation and and, I use the word again, vindictiveness, not about doing their job, but more the way that they are doing it, with a lot of ill-feeling between both sides.
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 17:48
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I would say there's clearly a high chance that the CAA are being a touch vindictive here, afterall, they are refusing permits to a/c that they have been quite happily granting permits for, in some cases, for well in excess of 10-15 years.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 07:36
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I would doubt that the CAA are being vindictive. They have no powers to take such a stance but this paragraph from a previous post says it all

To imply that CAA "gets seriously upset" shows a lack of understanding on their function. The CAA is an accountable public body and their decisions can be appealed by any person directly affected by their decisions if they believe the the CAA is not exercising their powers correctly.
If the FC are not happy that the individuals are 'behaving' correctly they can appeal, and it is worth doing that. I have known a CAA inspector who overstepped the mark when it was thought he had the right to make certain unreasonable demands - but was overruled by his superiors. In those circumstances they are usually told to mend fences and help rather than hinder.

As the man says they are accountable and do not have the right to make unreasonable demands on indeterminate issues. IF, indeed, the suggestions above are themselves correct.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 14:37
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Originally Posted by PPRuNe Pop
I have known a CAA inspector who overstepped the mark when it was thought he had the right to make certain unreasonable demands - but was overruled by his superiors.
Unless those very superiors are behind the action in the first place
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 16:09
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I know nothing of the facts of this dispute but some of the assertions in this thread strike me as a little naïve.

happybiker
To imply that CAA "gets seriously upset" shows a lack of understanding on their function.
Given that the CAA's function (just like that of any other organisation) is performed by human beings, perhaps it shows an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of human nature.

I have no idea whether anyone is being vindictive in this instance, but people with power can be vindictive even without going outside the powers available to them. eg By nitpicking. By applying laws/regulations strictly to the letter instead of exercising sensible discretion.

PPRuNe Pop
An appeal process is unlikely to be of help if, according to the letter of the law, the person exercising his/her power is entitled to act as he/she has - even if anyone with a modicum of common sense would have used sensible discretion, and even if the same person (or a predecessor) has previously done so.
(Again, a general point - not specific to this dispute.)



.

Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 25th Oct 2009 at 16:19.
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Old 25th Oct 2009, 17:23
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Think GeeRams comment of 24th is quite relavant, some of TFC aircraft have been signed off by the CAA for years - then very shortly after a 'dispute' suddenly all these same aircraft are all grounded due to "paperwork" issues. Hmmmmm.
Ive seen many times over the years whilst working in large organisations that one can be never surprised how petty\vindictive people can be and are for the most part generally supported by their Superiors untill it reaches a point where the Superiors are beging to feel embarrased themselves - only then does it tend to get resolved.
Again I wish TFC all the very best in getting this resolved, it will be interesting to see if the same CAA methodology is applied to other Vintage aircraft organisations eg Shuttleworth, ARC etc
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