Chipmunk Is Beautiful
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: France
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VH-FTA spinning accident
manderson:
In my younger days I was an Instructor at the Royal Aeroclub of New South Wales at Bankstown.. I left the Club in mid 1961.
In those days we were allocated to a particular Chipmunk and mine was VH-FTA. I spent many hundreds of hours instructing in it. At the time there was a lot of talk in the industry, about the spinning characteristics of the Chipmunk. The CFI at the time spent many hours with some of the instructors testing in flight these characteristics.The spin recovery technique was not changed at that time.
In 1961,when I left the Aeroclub, my position and '"my' aircraft, VH-FTA was allocated to the (late) Arthur Kell when he joined the Club.
The accident was a sad loss of the crew and whether the 20P theory was the full answer or not, I do not know.. I was told that the covering around the bottom of the control column was dislodged or missing.
Tmb
In my younger days I was an Instructor at the Royal Aeroclub of New South Wales at Bankstown.. I left the Club in mid 1961.
In those days we were allocated to a particular Chipmunk and mine was VH-FTA. I spent many hundreds of hours instructing in it. At the time there was a lot of talk in the industry, about the spinning characteristics of the Chipmunk. The CFI at the time spent many hours with some of the instructors testing in flight these characteristics.The spin recovery technique was not changed at that time.
In 1961,when I left the Aeroclub, my position and '"my' aircraft, VH-FTA was allocated to the (late) Arthur Kell when he joined the Club.
The accident was a sad loss of the crew and whether the 20P theory was the full answer or not, I do not know.. I was told that the covering around the bottom of the control column was dislodged or missing.
Tmb
Manderson, with respect there’s never been a Chipmunk in Australia registered VH-RCP. All my sources have referred to two RACNSW survivors after the FTA accident (RSQ and RSK), although that’s not to say there weren’t 3. Possibly you’re getting confused with RSP, although that was sold 4 months before the FTA accident.
To try and prove the “coin jammed in the control column saddle mounting” theory, DCA cast around for a similarly configured Chipmunk to FTA (i.e. small rudder/no strakes). As the two(?) survivors had, by this stage, been already fitted with the Aerostructures tapered strakes, they chose AFG. A removable bracket was fitted to limit forward column travel, intending to simulate the restriction caused by the jammed coin. The problem here was that AFG’s owner, at one stage Australian Aerobatic Champion, stated that AFG would recover from a spin “on ailerons alone”.
The trials were inconclusive…
To try and prove the “coin jammed in the control column saddle mounting” theory, DCA cast around for a similarly configured Chipmunk to FTA (i.e. small rudder/no strakes). As the two(?) survivors had, by this stage, been already fitted with the Aerostructures tapered strakes, they chose AFG. A removable bracket was fitted to limit forward column travel, intending to simulate the restriction caused by the jammed coin. The problem here was that AFG’s owner, at one stage Australian Aerobatic Champion, stated that AFG would recover from a spin “on ailerons alone”.
The trials were inconclusive…
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: France
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chipmunks at The Royal 1960/1961
Dora-9:
I can not recall the registration VH-RCP in a DHC1.
From my logbook the Chipmunk registrations at that time were: VH-BAY,VH-BAX, VH-RSR, VH-RSV, VH-RSM, VH-RSP, VH-RSQ and VH-RSK.
Maybe the Registration VH-RCP was really VH-RSP.
Rgds
Tmb
I can not recall the registration VH-RCP in a DHC1.
From my logbook the Chipmunk registrations at that time were: VH-BAY,VH-BAX, VH-RSR, VH-RSV, VH-RSM, VH-RSP, VH-RSQ and VH-RSK.
Maybe the Registration VH-RCP was really VH-RSP.
Rgds
Tmb
this is mainly due to D.H. Mosquito design of the tailplane where the forward set rudder is blanketed in spin.
I am confused (not difficult!). I was told that the fin and rudder were set forward so that they would NOT be blanketed by the tailplane during a spin.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Samoa
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VH-FTA Spinning accident
My apologies, the Chipmunk was of course RSP as RS_ was the standard serials for most RAC NSW aircraft. RCP was a Cessna 310 that I used to fly for SAATAS; old age in action!
Also replying to to the Mosquito type tail the airflow is coming very much from under the horizontal tailplane in a fully developed spin hence partially blanketing the forward set rudder. In aircraft such as the Pitts the rudder continues down below the elevators so is still exposed to the airflow despite the alarming attitudes this aircraft encounters. If I remember correctly the rotation did not stop until the nose started down, despite initial application of opposite rudder. I don't think they used to deliberately spin Mosquitos!
Also replying to to the Mosquito type tail the airflow is coming very much from under the horizontal tailplane in a fully developed spin hence partially blanketing the forward set rudder. In aircraft such as the Pitts the rudder continues down below the elevators so is still exposed to the airflow despite the alarming attitudes this aircraft encounters. If I remember correctly the rotation did not stop until the nose started down, despite initial application of opposite rudder. I don't think they used to deliberately spin Mosquitos!
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Secessionist Republic of Western Australia
Age: 67
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Chipmunk saga
I first left Terra Firma in a Chippy from RAF Newton, Nottinghamshire, England after waddling across the frosty grass with a parachute slapping the back of my legs. My memory tells me it was WD591 ?
I found the following in an old Air Training Corps magazine from around 1969. It refers to the scrapping of the Chippy in favour of the Beagle/SA Bulldog :
The Chipmunk Saga by Sqn Ldr Jonklaas.
"You are old, Mother Chipmunk," the young Pup said,
"And there's one thing that does me intrigue;
How you carry on spinning, to the left and the right.
Does it not cause you over-fatigue ?"
"In my youth," said the crone, "when my main spar was new,
Fatigue used to cause quite a scare.
Now I double my fatigue life time after time
So I always have something to spare."
"You are old, Mother Chipmunk," the young Pup said,
"And your available radio aids slim.
Yet your limited frequencies don't cramp your style
And you wander around at your whim."
"In my youth," said the crone, it worried me sick,
As I dodged all those airways and cloud,
But now I keep tuned to 'Distress' all the time
And I yell 'Mayday' -three times- very loud."
"You have an old engine," the young Pup sneered,
"That cuts out with negative G.
Yet you do a slow roll whenever you please.
Seems like asking for trouble to me !"
"Since my youth," said the crone as she rolled once again,
"I've had just a touch of a cough.
Now they call it some fancy name -'rich cut'- I think,
But it doesn't put my pilots off."
"You are old, Mother Chipmunk," the young Pup said,
"And it's high time I took your place.
You are tandem; and slow; and don't climb too well;
You must surely be slipping from grace."
"In my youth," said the crone, as her engine coughed twice,
"I was thought of as a real little honey.
And you don't stand a chance of stepping into my wheels
Because the Air Force has run out of money."
History records that Mother Chipmunk was wrong with her last two lines!
Regards to all, Weeds
I found the following in an old Air Training Corps magazine from around 1969. It refers to the scrapping of the Chippy in favour of the Beagle/SA Bulldog :
The Chipmunk Saga by Sqn Ldr Jonklaas.
"You are old, Mother Chipmunk," the young Pup said,
"And there's one thing that does me intrigue;
How you carry on spinning, to the left and the right.
Does it not cause you over-fatigue ?"
"In my youth," said the crone, "when my main spar was new,
Fatigue used to cause quite a scare.
Now I double my fatigue life time after time
So I always have something to spare."
"You are old, Mother Chipmunk," the young Pup said,
"And your available radio aids slim.
Yet your limited frequencies don't cramp your style
And you wander around at your whim."
"In my youth," said the crone, it worried me sick,
As I dodged all those airways and cloud,
But now I keep tuned to 'Distress' all the time
And I yell 'Mayday' -three times- very loud."
"You have an old engine," the young Pup sneered,
"That cuts out with negative G.
Yet you do a slow roll whenever you please.
Seems like asking for trouble to me !"
"Since my youth," said the crone as she rolled once again,
"I've had just a touch of a cough.
Now they call it some fancy name -'rich cut'- I think,
But it doesn't put my pilots off."
"You are old, Mother Chipmunk," the young Pup said,
"And it's high time I took your place.
You are tandem; and slow; and don't climb too well;
You must surely be slipping from grace."
"In my youth," said the crone, as her engine coughed twice,
"I was thought of as a real little honey.
And you don't stand a chance of stepping into my wheels
Because the Air Force has run out of money."
History records that Mother Chipmunk was wrong with her last two lines!
Regards to all, Weeds
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Weeds, Mother Chipmunk may have been wrong, but I was still flying AEF cadets around in 1990.
Tmbstory, wonderful picture of a fleet of REAL aeorplanes/
Tmbstory, wonderful picture of a fleet of REAL aeorplanes/
Tmbstory - lovely photos, thanks.
Isn't it 'amazing' as to how the 'wheel turns'....
I stumbled on this thread from one on the DHC-1, and.....suprise suprise....
I took my first flight in a Chippie as a young ATC Cadet, and 'loved it'.
So, on 17 May 1964 I took my TIF in 'FTA' with John McCullagh.
Other instructors followed - quite a few different ones - however lesson 3 saw me with 'Spike' Jennings, and so followed 'circuits' with him.
RSP, RSQ, RSK with Kev Fethers, with Alan Barlow, and eventually Bill Lord sent me 'off' in RSK on my first solo.
Did spins with Spike, no strakes then, and as far as I am aware, there were no problems with the recovery after 4 turns.
4 turns was the 'recommended max' then.
I do recall the stall from a climbing steep turn would give a rather fast 'autorotation' and a resulting 'wot happened then..?' as it spun the other way....
All of my spinning was in RSQ and RSK, in 1964.
Later in 1968 I was instructing in the WA Wheatbelt and was offerred Chippie AMV to use to teach a couple of Ag Sales people.
Did the required spins in her and they were OK. 4 turns only was 'good policy' apparently.
Then later, joy of joy, RSK appeared in WA and was available to moi..!! Again!!
It seemed to be the 'nicest' Chippie - something to do with a wing mod I was told - anyhow.
Pat Gallagher, ex RACNSW CFI, was in WA at that time and took great delight in checking out one of my students in it. I think he thoroughly enjoyed that aircraft as well.
'Chippies' and 'Tigers' - Ah! Wot a life it was....The WA wheatbelt was 'alive' with 'good' and 'interesting' aircraft way back then.
The 'wheel turning'.......
Recently, self and No1 son acquired one DHC-1 VH-RWI from RACWA.
Ex - WB728, EI-AHP, G-AOZU, 5N-AGP....others(?)
We intend leaving it 'on line' with RACWA as we don't have bottom-less pockets, and it will be 'interesting' to get into a Chippie again after 40 years on.....
That's a luvly photo Mr 'T' of the fleet lined up.
As I recall, RSX the PA-24 180 was a nice machine to fly. I only flew her once or twice as I had a better rate with a PA-24 '250' at the time.
And just for info, I did my navs with Arthur Kell. One of nature's gentlemen.
At about the same time there was a French Lancaster at De Hav's for servicing - it was a maritime patrol acft in from Noumea, and Arthur was invited to go and 're-kindle the memories' in it.
OOps sorry to take up so much space, ...memories....
Cheers
I stumbled on this thread from one on the DHC-1, and.....suprise suprise....
I took my first flight in a Chippie as a young ATC Cadet, and 'loved it'.
So, on 17 May 1964 I took my TIF in 'FTA' with John McCullagh.
Other instructors followed - quite a few different ones - however lesson 3 saw me with 'Spike' Jennings, and so followed 'circuits' with him.
RSP, RSQ, RSK with Kev Fethers, with Alan Barlow, and eventually Bill Lord sent me 'off' in RSK on my first solo.
Did spins with Spike, no strakes then, and as far as I am aware, there were no problems with the recovery after 4 turns.
4 turns was the 'recommended max' then.
I do recall the stall from a climbing steep turn would give a rather fast 'autorotation' and a resulting 'wot happened then..?' as it spun the other way....
All of my spinning was in RSQ and RSK, in 1964.
Later in 1968 I was instructing in the WA Wheatbelt and was offerred Chippie AMV to use to teach a couple of Ag Sales people.
Did the required spins in her and they were OK. 4 turns only was 'good policy' apparently.
Then later, joy of joy, RSK appeared in WA and was available to moi..!! Again!!
It seemed to be the 'nicest' Chippie - something to do with a wing mod I was told - anyhow.
Pat Gallagher, ex RACNSW CFI, was in WA at that time and took great delight in checking out one of my students in it. I think he thoroughly enjoyed that aircraft as well.
'Chippies' and 'Tigers' - Ah! Wot a life it was....The WA wheatbelt was 'alive' with 'good' and 'interesting' aircraft way back then.
The 'wheel turning'.......
Recently, self and No1 son acquired one DHC-1 VH-RWI from RACWA.
Ex - WB728, EI-AHP, G-AOZU, 5N-AGP....others(?)
We intend leaving it 'on line' with RACWA as we don't have bottom-less pockets, and it will be 'interesting' to get into a Chippie again after 40 years on.....
That's a luvly photo Mr 'T' of the fleet lined up.
As I recall, RSX the PA-24 180 was a nice machine to fly. I only flew her once or twice as I had a better rate with a PA-24 '250' at the time.
And just for info, I did my navs with Arthur Kell. One of nature's gentlemen.
At about the same time there was a French Lancaster at De Hav's for servicing - it was a maritime patrol acft in from Noumea, and Arthur was invited to go and 're-kindle the memories' in it.
OOps sorry to take up so much space, ...memories....
Cheers
''And you don't stand a chance of stepping into my wheels
Because the Air Force has run out of money''
''Weeds, Mother Chipmunk may have been wrong, but I was still flying AEF cadets around in 1990.''
And the elementary trainer for the real RAF pilots (not the UAS students) until 1993!
Because the Air Force has run out of money''
''Weeds, Mother Chipmunk may have been wrong, but I was still flying AEF cadets around in 1990.''
And the elementary trainer for the real RAF pilots (not the UAS students) until 1993!
Ex FSO GRIFFO - so you're the one who bought VH-RWI. Well done! PM sent...
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting stuff re spinning. I was taught the way to spin was full rudder immediately followed by stick fully back and full opposite aileron. Hold like that throughout until recovery started.
Anybody else do their 1st solo in G-AOSN?
Anybody else do their 1st solo in G-AOSN?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chippie
Gives that WWII, 'chocks away, chaps!' feel when you pull the starter - and then you can pretend it's a Spitfire when you have to weave the nose to see where you are going whilst taxying.
Only disappointment - it cannot maintain altitude whilst enjoying aeros.
Don't stall turn to the left ... erm ... or was it right?
Only disappointment - it cannot maintain altitude whilst enjoying aeros.
Don't stall turn to the left ... erm ... or was it right?
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Samoa
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am enjoying everybody's reminiscences of the Chipmunk; truly a memorable aircraft.
Mention of various RAC Instructors brings back memories.
I also was sent solo in RSK by Bill Lord during 1965, managing to achieve a complete induced tail wheel shimmy!
Arthur Kell was indeed a reserved gentleman. I did one eventful cross-country to Canberra with him plus several training flights. He actually was one of the crew (Captain?) who ferried the ex-New Caledonia French Navy Lancaster to Great Britain in the 1960's. Is this the one the BBMF still use?
Spike Jennings was a lovable, laid back, jolly fellow and a pleasure to fly with, which I did a lot.
Pat Gallagher was just before my time but his very low level demonstrations in a Chipmunk at Wallacia, including steep turns around a gum tree with the wing tip some 2 metres above the ground, were awesome.
Speaking of RSX the previous RSX was the Percival Prince which Sir Reg Barnewall purchased to start Polynesian Airlines in 1959. This aircraft remained largely intact in the bush near Faleolo Airport, Samoa until 2005 when a ruthless golf course contractor buried it in the ground! I had an enjoyable meeting with Sir Reg and his wife when they came to Samoa to release his book "Wings Over Samoa" in 2008.
Mention of various RAC Instructors brings back memories.
I also was sent solo in RSK by Bill Lord during 1965, managing to achieve a complete induced tail wheel shimmy!
Arthur Kell was indeed a reserved gentleman. I did one eventful cross-country to Canberra with him plus several training flights. He actually was one of the crew (Captain?) who ferried the ex-New Caledonia French Navy Lancaster to Great Britain in the 1960's. Is this the one the BBMF still use?
Spike Jennings was a lovable, laid back, jolly fellow and a pleasure to fly with, which I did a lot.
Pat Gallagher was just before my time but his very low level demonstrations in a Chipmunk at Wallacia, including steep turns around a gum tree with the wing tip some 2 metres above the ground, were awesome.
Speaking of RSX the previous RSX was the Percival Prince which Sir Reg Barnewall purchased to start Polynesian Airlines in 1959. This aircraft remained largely intact in the bush near Faleolo Airport, Samoa until 2005 when a ruthless golf course contractor buried it in the ground! I had an enjoyable meeting with Sir Reg and his wife when they came to Samoa to release his book "Wings Over Samoa" in 2008.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't stall turn to the left ... erm ... or was it right?
Don't do it left if you want a simple life. As the speed drops with full power set, going straight up, you need more and more left rudder. By about 40kts you've pretty much got full left rudder on and you're still vertical.
So whack on full right, and round she'll go!
Don't do it left if you want a simple life. As the speed drops with full power set, going straight up, you need more and more left rudder. By about 40kts you've pretty much got full left rudder on and you're still vertical.
So whack on full right, and round she'll go!
To the left is harder, and a different technique than that to the right. The trick is to take off the power slowly while feeding in the left rudder. The RAF EFTS students had to acheive an acceptable level in all the 5 basic aerobatic manouvres in the book (loop, barrel roll. slow roll, stall turn and roll off the top) and the stall turn had to be demonstrated both ways. They got taught the stall turn to the right first and to the left when they had mastered the right. They could invariably achieve all the aeros at the end of the 54 hour course.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 12th Dec 2010 at 16:12. Reason: spilling
Wonder if anyone can help on this one...........
Twelve Chipmunks were registered in Kenya (VP-K** colonial register)
VP-KLM - VP-KLY.
I am seeking photos of the following four wearing their VP-K rgns:
VP-KLN DHC-1 Chipmunk T.10 CI/0445 WG356
VP-KLT DHC-1 Chipmunk T.10 CI/0368 WG312 to F-OASK
VP-KLU DHC-1 Chipmunk T.10 CI/0340 WG276
VP-KLV DHC-1 Chipmunk T.10 CI/0349 WG285
Wonder if there is anyone out there who can help me?
Thks Planemike...........
Twelve Chipmunks were registered in Kenya (VP-K** colonial register)
VP-KLM - VP-KLY.
I am seeking photos of the following four wearing their VP-K rgns:
VP-KLN DHC-1 Chipmunk T.10 CI/0445 WG356
VP-KLT DHC-1 Chipmunk T.10 CI/0368 WG312 to F-OASK
VP-KLU DHC-1 Chipmunk T.10 CI/0340 WG276
VP-KLV DHC-1 Chipmunk T.10 CI/0349 WG285
Wonder if there is anyone out there who can help me?
Thks Planemike...........