BOAC B707-436 Early LAX operations

[411A]

It should be remembered by those that are looking at some of these older non-stop sectors flown long ago with these early generation jet transport airplanes...that many times, they were payload restricted, in order to actually fly the sector...non-stop.

The devil is in the details.

[Tim Zukas]

Jane's 1960-61 says normal capacity for the 707-320/420 was 21200 US gallons, optional 23590.

The item was in The Aeroplane for 6 Jan 1961:

"Pan American completed what is believed to be the first non-stop commercial flight between London and Los Angeles on Jan. 1. Flight PA121 (Capt. Eugene Myring) left London at 16.19 hrs. G.M.T. on Dec. 31, and reached Los Angeles (5,140 naut. miles) in 11 hr. 42 min., carrying 37 passengers, 13 crew and 8,500 lb. of freight. It left London Airport at max. weight with full tanks (155,000 lb. fuel) and had 13,000 lb. of fuel unburnt on arrival. There was nil wind component, the average speed being 436 knots."

[Seat62K]

You learn something new every day!

I had absolutely no idea that -436s flew non-stop on West Coast routes early in the '60s. I had assumed that because a decade later Los Angeles was served via New York that this had always been the case.


Does anyone know why non-stop services to Los Angeles were withdrawn by BOAC? (Also, am I right in assuming that they were not re-introduced until the DC10-30s were leased from Air New Zealand?)

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by Seat62K

Does anyone know why non-stop services to Los Angeles were withdrawn by BOAC? (Also, am I right in assuming that they were not re-introduced until the DC10-30s were leased from Air New Zealand?)

My hunch (only) wuld be that BOAC didn't have the aircraft to do it. The 707-436s must have been pushed, either through reducing their commercial load or by making fuel stops, while once the 707-320B came on line for Pan Am and TWA they had an aircraft with proper range for the job. BOAC had gone for the Rolls Royce engine instead of P&W, and when the 707-320B/C range was introduced Rolls didn't have a comparable engine. BOAC later moved onto this variant, but only buying odd units rather than a fleet, and for some years only operated them in freighter service, another variant that the Rolls-powered aircraft didn't offer.

The LA market in those days to Europe was much thinner than now, and mostly originated from the US end (the film/media business in particular), and this would be commercially well tied up by the two US carriers, in particular TWA who long focused on the film industry market in Los Angeles, which some have attributed to Howard Hughes' contacts. With two US carriers strong on the route BOAC probably found it commercially wasn't worthwhile.

[Jumbo Driver]

Originally Posted by Seat62K

I had absolutely no idea that -436s flew non-stop on West Coast routes early in the '60s. I had assumed that because a decade later Los Angeles was served via New York that this had always been the case.

I don't believe that the 707-436 ever flew scheduled non-stop LHR-LAX, that was just too far. I remember the range of the -436 being not that different from the VC10 and it was certainly not a feasible operation by VC10, which normally routed via JFK. In fact, I recall doing a couple of West Coast trips in the early 70s with a crew slip (planned!) in Gander.

Both 707 & VC10 had Conways but I think the 707 had an earlier version (Conway 508) developing around 18,000lb thrust. The VC10 had the RCo.42 (Conway 540) which produced just over 20,000lb and the later Super VC10 was given the RCo.43 (Conway 550B) with IIRC around 22,500lb.

The 707-336C was a different animal with, I believe, the P&W JT3D-3B; this had significantly lower fuel-burn and therefore much longer range. The first -436s were delivered to BOAC in 1959/60 but the -336Cs did not appear until some 5 years later, from about 1965 on.

If any 707 had been planned LHR-LAX direct (non-stop), I feel it would have to have been the -336 and not the -436 ...


JD

[Groundloop]

but the -336Cs did not appear until some 5 years later, from about 1965 on.

And the early -336Cs in the BOAC fleet were dedicated to freighter ops only.

[WHBM]

Only right at the end of the 707's life at BOAC did they finally go for the developed 707-320B for passenger service. When they got the route through Moscow to Tokyo in 1970 they bought two such aircraft new specially for this. It was a strange purchase, coming after BOAC had taken delivery of their first 747s and as they were getting ready to dispose of the 707-420 fleet. Furthermore Tokyo to Moscow at Great Circle 4049 nm is nothing like London to LAX at 4741 nm.

The -320B gave a bit more range than the -320C as it didn't have the cargo door/strengthened floor structure; if they were that marginal that they couldn't use their existing -320Cs on the route then it must have been well beyond the old -420s.

[Seat62K]

I think BOAC 707-300s were also used on the London-Anchorage-Tokyo route and, perhaps, that the -436s never flew this route. Does anyone recall whether this was inaugurated earlier than the route via Moscow?

Thanks.

[The SSK]

Yes, much earlier.

A May 69 ABC which I happen to have handy has BA850 operating 3 days a week, the MOW-TYO operation started mid 1970s

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

I'm looking at my BOAC Staff/Confidential letter confirming my three-month posting to Sheremetievo, commencing September 24 1970, to do the Trans-Siberian flight-planning. The flight numbers were in fact BA860 eastbound and BA861 westbound.

As I've posted before, somewhere, the only aircraft on the route while I was in SVO, was the 'oddball' ex-Saturn -379C G-AWHU. The specially ordered -336Bs were delivered in 1971.

SVO - TYO was generally full-tanks, and it most certainly was, westbound! By the time I left, the S.G. of the fuel had increased such that we were getting an extra 1,000 kg in tanks, something like 71,000 kg.

[411A]

I don't believe that the 707-436 ever flew scheduled non-stop LHR-LAX,

You can believe all you want, however...you, yourself, would be quite mistaken.

Sorry, them's the facts.
Payload restricted, it most certainly is possible.
And...done, on numerous occasions.

Confirmed, by those in the know.
The rest?
Guessing, no more nor less.
No surprise, there.

[Seat62K]

Are you sure Hotel Uniform was "ex-Saturn"?

Although ordered by Saturn, I think this particular 707 went straight to BOAC.

Am I mistaken?

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

I can't remember exactly how 'HU came to us. What I do remember is that initially it had a different flight director system - perhaps a Collins FD108? - and only a limited number of pilots were checked out on it. Hence 'oddball.'

For the three months I was in SVO, the only serious defect it came in with was the captain's windshield heat failing half-way across Siberia. It quickly frosted over, and the captain purloined a bottle of gin from the first class bar to smear across it in an attempt to clear it. A right mess ensued, and I think it became the first officer's landing! The fault was traced to the circuit breaker. Our solitary Air India ground engineer robbed one from the cove lighting in the passenger cabin, and off it went to LHR. Happy days!

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by Seat62K

Although ordered by Saturn, I think this particular 707 went straight to BOAC.

Correct. Saturn ordered three 707-379C for delivery in Spring 1968 as N761U-3U. One went to straight Ethiopian, the second to BOAC, and the third hung around Seattle in Saturn colours for some months but finally went to Varig. Saturn also bought new and secondhand DC8s at the same time which lasted for some years, so they possibly lost a contract the 707s were intended for. G-AWHU came to BOAC in June 1968, so had been in stock for 2.5 years before the Trans-Siberian started.

Was the navigation equipment fit its reason for sole allocation to the route, rather than any range issue ? Would be interesting to hear about comparisons with the Aeroflot IL-62s on the Tokyo route, and indeed with their amazing Tu-114 contra-rotating prop aircraft that preceded them, swept wing and with a fuselage size comparable to the 707, and also about aviation in Moscow at that time. G-ALHI, do you have enough recollections for a separate thread ?

[arem]

'AWHU was a -379C series which meant it was Ordered by Saturn - it came to BOAC with a collins 108 system FD and a flightdeck layout similair to the 747 eg fire handles on the o/h panel, FD on the coaming etc - hence the requirement for a few specialised crews - which since it was destined to fly JFK/NAS/BDA/KIN schedules meant it was a very senior aircraft.

This lasted for six months and then the '747' flight deck was rearranged to standardised with the rest of the 707 fleet and was flown by anybody qualified to fly 336's.

[Seat62K]

Does anyone know whether there were similar crewing requirements for BOAC's other "odd" (for want of a better term) 707s (i.e., -ARWD and -ARWE, both -465s and ex-Cunard Eagle; and -ATZD, -365 and ex-British Eagle)?

Thanks.

[Mike6567]

I flew (as one of the co-pilots) the first leg of the second Siberian service (LHR-SVO BA860-002) in G-AXGW on 4 June 1970. We stopped in Moscow and took the return flight back (SVO-LHR BA861-002) on 5 June. The captain had done the first service a couple of days before and took sandwiches he had bought in Terminal 3. We thought this a little odd until we went out in Moscow to try to get a meal. I think some of the cabin crew on the first service had visa problems so didn't even make it to the hotel in town! I didn't think the BOAC 436 ever operated to LAX until I saw the postings here.

[Seat62K]

I'd love to see a scan of the timetable showing the nonstop service!

Can anyone help?

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by Seat62K

.... a scan of the timetable showing the nonstop service ....

Timetable effective October 1 1962

Westbound (with unspecified tech stop) :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...62/ba62-06.jpg

Eastbound (nonstop) :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...62/ba62-08.jpg

[wayoutwest]

whbm.thanks did boac run a bus stop type service to frankfurt zurich tel aviv and teheran.my that couldnt happen today.did boac pick up many pax in frankfurt and zurich?.