Nigger's grave (Merged)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fear no Herod, Peter Jackson is going to paint those hills in the background a sort of dull drizzly grey colour to represent the sky over Lincolnshire
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Google Earth
There's a picture on Google Earth on the Scampton Airfield with the plaque still in place. I don't know if the picture is pre or post cleaning. Here's a link to the same picture on Panaramio
Panoramio - Photo of Nigger's Grave
Panoramio - Photo of Nigger's Grave
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wondering. Has Jackson's version of The Dambusters been released yet?
The original has been showing on TV over the Xmas holidays. As an ATC Cadet, I attended every showing at The Odeon, Stockton on Tees for ten days in 1962, collecting for RAFA Wings Appeal. Much to the Missus's annoyance, I could still remember most of the dialogue.
Chatting with Jo Kmiecek when he was on 207, he mentioned that he was the pilot of one of the Lancasters used in the film. They shot the night scenes in broad daylight, with the camera stops set to give the appearance of night-time and he found the experience terrifying. He said that the 617 crews must have been supermen to fly like that at night.
The original has been showing on TV over the Xmas holidays. As an ATC Cadet, I attended every showing at The Odeon, Stockton on Tees for ten days in 1962, collecting for RAFA Wings Appeal. Much to the Missus's annoyance, I could still remember most of the dialogue.
Chatting with Jo Kmiecek when he was on 207, he mentioned that he was the pilot of one of the Lancasters used in the film. They shot the night scenes in broad daylight, with the camera stops set to give the appearance of night-time and he found the experience terrifying. He said that the 617 crews must have been supermen to fly like that at night.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: due south
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not yet Blacksheep, I think the release is some way off yet.
The original director of the Hobbit resigned, so Jackson has taken over and is very busy on that job at present.
The original director of the Hobbit resigned, so Jackson has taken over and is very busy on that job at present.
The Dog...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chedburgh, Bury St.Edmunds
Age: 81
Posts: 1,175
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
Stepwilk. Please don't be offended by this. It is an English expression that has been around for centuries, and has absolutely nothing to do with race or colour. It simply refers to a garden tool, and I am sure someone knows the history of the expression better than I. It may be something different in your country, just as 'Fanny' to you has a totally [and to some people,rather obscene] meaning over here. I am sure GQ2 was tongue in cheek, because he knows the dog cannot have it's original name in this day and age.
At the same time, history cannot really be changed, and I wonder if anyone over here has asked any gentlemen of colour if they would be offended by using it's original name?
Certainly my coloured ex son-in-law would see no offence in it whatsoever.
At the same time, history cannot really be changed, and I wonder if anyone over here has asked any gentlemen of colour if they would be offended by using it's original name?
Certainly my coloured ex son-in-law would see no offence in it whatsoever.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the U.S., an African-American is referred to as "a spade," by the same people who call Italians wops and Spaniards spicks. We too have spades (shovels) as garden tools and well know that word, which is certainly not peculiar to the English.
Channel 4, film on now, calling the dog by the correct and full name. Did warn viewers beforehand at the start.
Air pig.
Air pig.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Frome - where we do as Fromans do.
Age: 68
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The shovel that is actually a kneading trough...
This is an expression with a wonderfully confused history and dates back well before the time that politcial correctness was allowed to interfere with what those of us who find great appreciation of the art of words, might refer to as the colour of language – the slight pun in this case being intended but also with no wish to cause offence.
Extract from Mark Israel, ('Phrase Origins: "to call a spade a spade"')
"To call a spade a spade" is NOT an ethnic slur.
It derives from an ancient Greek expression: ta syka syka, te:n
skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
trough". This is first recorded in Aristophanes' play The Clouds
(423 B.C.), was used by Menander and Plutarch, and is still current
in modern Greek. There has been a slight shift in meaning: in
ancient times the phrase was often used pejoratively, to denote a
rude person who spoke his mind tactlessly; but it now, like the
English phrase, has an exclusively positive connotation. It is
possible that both the fig and the trough were originally sexual
symbols.
In the Renaissance, Erasmus confused Plutarch's "trough"
(skaphe) with the Greek word for "digging tool" (skapheion;
the two words are etymologically connected, a trough being
something that is hollowed out) and rendered it in Latin as ligo.
Thence it was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas Udall in
his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade [...] a
spade". (Bartlett's Familiar Quotations perpetuates Erasmus'
error by mistranslating skaphe: as "spade" three times under
Menander.)
"To call a spade a bloody shovel" is not recorded until 1919.
"Spade" in the sense of "Negro" is not recorded until 1928. (It
comes from the colour of the playing card symbol, via the phrase
"black as the ace of spades".)
This, of course, does not necessarily render the modern use of
"to call a spade a spade" "politically correct". Rosalie Maggio, in
The Bias-Free Word-Finder, writes: "The expression is associated
with a racial slur and is to be avoided", and recommends using "to
speak plainly" or other alternatives instead. In another entry, she
writes: "Although by definition and derivation 'niggardly' and
'nigger' are completely unrelated, 'niggardly' is too close for
comfort to a word with profoundly negative associations. Use
instead one of the many available alternatives: stingy, miserly,
parsimonious..."
Beard and Cerf, in The Official Politically Correct Handbook,
p. 123, report that an administrator at the University of California
at Santa Cruz campaigned for the banning of such phrases as "a chink
in his armor" and "a nip in the air", because "chink" and "nip" are also
derogatory terms for "Chinese person" and "Japanese person" respectively.
In the late 1970s in the U.S., a boycott of the (now defunct) Sambo's
restaurant chain was organized, even though the name "Sambo's" was
a combination of the names of its two founders and did not come from
the offensive word for dark-skinned person.
We live and learn. Perhaps...
jg
Extract from Mark Israel, ('Phrase Origins: "to call a spade a spade"')
"To call a spade a spade" is NOT an ethnic slur.
It derives from an ancient Greek expression: ta syka syka, te:n
skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
trough". This is first recorded in Aristophanes' play The Clouds
(423 B.C.), was used by Menander and Plutarch, and is still current
in modern Greek. There has been a slight shift in meaning: in
ancient times the phrase was often used pejoratively, to denote a
rude person who spoke his mind tactlessly; but it now, like the
English phrase, has an exclusively positive connotation. It is
possible that both the fig and the trough were originally sexual
symbols.
In the Renaissance, Erasmus confused Plutarch's "trough"
(skaphe) with the Greek word for "digging tool" (skapheion;
the two words are etymologically connected, a trough being
something that is hollowed out) and rendered it in Latin as ligo.
Thence it was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas Udall in
his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade [...] a
spade". (Bartlett's Familiar Quotations perpetuates Erasmus'
error by mistranslating skaphe: as "spade" three times under
Menander.)
"To call a spade a bloody shovel" is not recorded until 1919.
"Spade" in the sense of "Negro" is not recorded until 1928. (It
comes from the colour of the playing card symbol, via the phrase
"black as the ace of spades".)
This, of course, does not necessarily render the modern use of
"to call a spade a spade" "politically correct". Rosalie Maggio, in
The Bias-Free Word-Finder, writes: "The expression is associated
with a racial slur and is to be avoided", and recommends using "to
speak plainly" or other alternatives instead. In another entry, she
writes: "Although by definition and derivation 'niggardly' and
'nigger' are completely unrelated, 'niggardly' is too close for
comfort to a word with profoundly negative associations. Use
instead one of the many available alternatives: stingy, miserly,
parsimonious..."
Beard and Cerf, in The Official Politically Correct Handbook,
p. 123, report that an administrator at the University of California
at Santa Cruz campaigned for the banning of such phrases as "a chink
in his armor" and "a nip in the air", because "chink" and "nip" are also
derogatory terms for "Chinese person" and "Japanese person" respectively.
In the late 1970s in the U.S., a boycott of the (now defunct) Sambo's
restaurant chain was organized, even though the name "Sambo's" was
a combination of the names of its two founders and did not come from
the offensive word for dark-skinned person.
We live and learn. Perhaps...
jg
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of that ethnography is interesting and accurate. "To call a spade a spade" in modern colloquial usage means "let's not equivocate. If a man is broke, say so, don't describe him as 'temporarily overextended."
In the U. S., a derogatory term for a black man is"a spade," derived from the fact that in a deck of cards, the suit called spades is black.
Therefore, to use the phrase in the way that the OP did is an sad attempt to make a racist joke, regardless of what the ancient Greeks meant. Let's not equivocate...
In the U. S., a derogatory term for a black man is"a spade," derived from the fact that in a deck of cards, the suit called spades is black.
Therefore, to use the phrase in the way that the OP did is an sad attempt to make a racist joke, regardless of what the ancient Greeks meant. Let's not equivocate...
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 1,061
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with you on this one, stepwilk.
We have been here before unfortunately. I have no problem with genuine historical interest in Guy Gibson's dog, but as usual when the unfortunate hound is mentioned on this forum, there are people who see an opportunity to be offensive.
We have been here before unfortunately. I have no problem with genuine historical interest in Guy Gibson's dog, but as usual when the unfortunate hound is mentioned on this forum, there are people who see an opportunity to be offensive.
Whilst it is of course offensive to use words which are used elsewhere as a term of racial harassment, I object to the way that some minorities hi-jack normal English for their own ends.
Whilst I was flying at Incirlik AB, it was clear that the F-15 people weren't allow to talk about the 'fighter box' or 'head-on intercept' - it seems that some ignorant, bra-burning old sow had complained that words such as 'box' and 'head' constituted sexual harassment....
So we asked the Spams whether they would please stop using a word which our ladies found deeply offensive. Being dim, they didn't realise that this was an obvious wind-up....
"Gee, sir, sorry - what word is that?"
"BUSH!!"
As for the look on their faces when they were told that "Smoking fags" was quite normal in the RAF.....
Until, that is, we told them that it meant smoking cigarettes, not shooting homosexuals.
As for the unpopular Wing Commander's equally unpopular dog, there are rumours that it never was buried; instead it was slung into a ditch by a hacked-off erk who'd been told to dig its grave.
Whilst I was flying at Incirlik AB, it was clear that the F-15 people weren't allow to talk about the 'fighter box' or 'head-on intercept' - it seems that some ignorant, bra-burning old sow had complained that words such as 'box' and 'head' constituted sexual harassment....
So we asked the Spams whether they would please stop using a word which our ladies found deeply offensive. Being dim, they didn't realise that this was an obvious wind-up....
"Gee, sir, sorry - what word is that?"
"BUSH!!"
As for the look on their faces when they were told that "Smoking fags" was quite normal in the RAF.....
Until, that is, we told them that it meant smoking cigarettes, not shooting homosexuals.As for the unpopular Wing Commander's equally unpopular dog, there are rumours that it never was buried; instead it was slung into a ditch by a hacked-off erk who'd been told to dig its grave.
Last edited by BEagle; 16th Jan 2012 at 12:32.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I started this thread nearly 3 years ago it was to ask a simple, factual question involving a Labrador dog whose name is part of history and cannot be changed in retrospect. Quote: I happened to be at Scampton yesterday. I went by Nigger's grave in front of the old 617 hangar. I was surprised to see that the inscribed plate with Nigger's details was missing, leaving just the rough slab. Does anyone know what has happened to it? Is it being cleaned, or is there something more sinister?
My simple question "Why was his gravestone missing?" was soon answered: "It was being cleaned."
End of story, but no, it has been exploited by both sides in a dispute that has nothing to do with my starting the thread. Although anyone with any sense knows that the unfortunate dog's name has taken on another connotation since, we are here talking about a 617 squadron mascot in the 1940s, and nothing else. Whether he was buried with due respect or dumped in a ditch by some unhappy airman is irrelevent, as is the subsequent misuse of his name.
Laurence
My simple question "Why was his gravestone missing?" was soon answered: "It was being cleaned."
End of story, but no, it has been exploited by both sides in a dispute that has nothing to do with my starting the thread. Although anyone with any sense knows that the unfortunate dog's name has taken on another connotation since, we are here talking about a 617 squadron mascot in the 1940s, and nothing else. Whether he was buried with due respect or dumped in a ditch by some unhappy airman is irrelevent, as is the subsequent misuse of his name.
Laurence
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing about threads is that they unravel in interesting ways. Otherwise this site would be a pretty boring place.
"What happened to the plaque?"
"It was being cleaned."
"Oh, thanks."
End of thread. You got your answer.
Instead, many of us have learned a variety of interesting things that we otherwise might not have, whether it's the derivation of spade-a-spade, the fact that feminist controllers object to the word box, or that the poor dog might have gotten slung into a ditch.
Sorry we bothered you, though.
"What happened to the plaque?"
"It was being cleaned."
"Oh, thanks."
End of thread. You got your answer.
Instead, many of us have learned a variety of interesting things that we otherwise might not have, whether it's the derivation of spade-a-spade, the fact that feminist controllers object to the word box, or that the poor dog might have gotten slung into a ditch.
Sorry we bothered you, though.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No bother stepwilk. Of course the beauty of these threads is often the thread slip. I was just trying to point out the origin of the thread. I just don't want it to slip too far in the wrong direction.
Laurence
Laurence
Pythonesque...
Overheard on a Birmingham bus many years ago, an argument about a passers-by's ethnicity - '.....e's norah ni**er, - he's a darkie!'. Out of the mouths of babes...
He was more probably, a 'very naughty boy'..!
He was more probably, a 'very naughty boy'..!
