Why can't English Electric Lightnings fly in UK airspace
doBack in the mid-'80s, VC10K / Lightning tanker trails from Akrotiri to UK were quite common and usually went pretty well. They took about 6 hrs for the Lightning mates, who were usually pretty happy to have plenty of fuel. If there was a T5 in the formation, there was a no-diversion 'critical area' somewhere near Crete which required the Tub to be in contact before reaching it, then remaining in contact until we'd flown through it - which concentrated the mind of the Lightning pilot, no doubt.
But on one occasion as we were about to reach the last bracket somewhere south of Paris, the Lightning leader called up to say that "We don't need the last bracket". A Lightning refusing a tanker several hundred miles from base was a new one on me - and I could just imagine the "Flt Lt, why did you short change the receivers when you had plenty of fuel?" Axminster shuffle I'd be having if we'd let him have his way and the formation had ended up diverting here, there and everywhere. So I politely informed said leader that I was obliged to follow the briefed plan, so would they please do so too.
They did so, but after they'd finished the leader came up on the R/T telling his colleagues that he needed them all to fly 'x' amount of hours before landing, which seemed odd to us - but I guessed that there was some silly fuel vs. time chart on their boss's wall which was the driver...
A few days later Jim U, my Boss, asked why I'd made them use the final bracket, so I told him that amendments to the plan had to be based on rather more than some fighter mate's WAG. Boss told me that the Lightning leader was OC 5 Sqn - and that if he'd been in my place and had known that who the leader was, he'd have binned the last bracket as requested. To which I replied "Boss, if I'd known that it would have given me even MORE reason to insist that they must stick to the plan!".
But on one occasion as we were about to reach the last bracket somewhere south of Paris, the Lightning leader called up to say that "We don't need the last bracket". A Lightning refusing a tanker several hundred miles from base was a new one on me - and I could just imagine the "Flt Lt, why did you short change the receivers when you had plenty of fuel?" Axminster shuffle I'd be having if we'd let him have his way and the formation had ended up diverting here, there and everywhere. So I politely informed said leader that I was obliged to follow the briefed plan, so would they please do so too.
They did so, but after they'd finished the leader came up on the R/T telling his colleagues that he needed them all to fly 'x' amount of hours before landing, which seemed odd to us - but I guessed that there was some silly fuel vs. time chart on their boss's wall which was the driver...
A few days later Jim U, my Boss, asked why I'd made them use the final bracket, so I told him that amendments to the plan had to be based on rather more than some fighter mate's WAG. Boss told me that the Lightning leader was OC 5 Sqn - and that if he'd been in my place and had known that who the leader was, he'd have binned the last bracket as requested. To which I replied "Boss, if I'd known that it would have given me even MORE reason to insist that they must stick to the plan!".
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Your mention of the T5 indicates that you were refuelling Mk6 jets.
We did it in the F3 without the big ventral. Our biggest problem was if any of us needed to use the p-bag.
It took about six hours because of the speed limit of the drogues. If I remember it was 250 kts IAS. In my day the tankers would not accelerate between brackets quoting that it made the navigation easier.
We did it in the F3 without the big ventral. Our biggest problem was if any of us needed to use the p-bag.
It took about six hours because of the speed limit of the drogues. If I remember it was 250 kts IAS. In my day the tankers would not accelerate between brackets quoting that it made the navigation easier.
December 1965: XD 815, a Valiant BK1 tanker is flying the race track on a flight refuelling training sortie for two Lightnings from Leconfield. One of them is quietly plugged in then allofasudden from the Nav Radar comes a cry that the hose is rocketing in, the fuel flow has gone off the clock, until the 15 ft. valve shuts it off.
One Lightning, complete with drogue and hose valve assembly from aforementioned refuelling hose stuck on his wing has just had on engine drowned in fuel and the other is not feeling very well.
He managed to get both stabilised a few thousand feet lower down and returned to Leconfield. There it had a problem because it has a fair bit of yaw as a result of the semi-aerodynamic drogue but he did get it down satisfactorily.
The Valiant, with yours truly sitting up front returned to Marham as Honington's runway was being resurfaced. XD815 never did return to Honington because that was the last Valiant tanker flight as the decision the scrap the fleet had been made whilst we were airborne.
There then followed forty two glorious years on helicopters.
One Lightning, complete with drogue and hose valve assembly from aforementioned refuelling hose stuck on his wing has just had on engine drowned in fuel and the other is not feeling very well.
He managed to get both stabilised a few thousand feet lower down and returned to Leconfield. There it had a problem because it has a fair bit of yaw as a result of the semi-aerodynamic drogue but he did get it down satisfactorily.
The Valiant, with yours truly sitting up front returned to Marham as Honington's runway was being resurfaced. XD815 never did return to Honington because that was the last Valiant tanker flight as the decision the scrap the fleet had been made whilst we were airborne.
There then followed forty two glorious years on helicopters.
That's one of those poofy fabric jobbos. Our ones were bigger and made of metal.
They had the same Sturmey Archer bicycle light generators to provide 6 volts for the drogue lights.
They had the same Sturmey Archer bicycle light generators to provide 6 volts for the drogue lights.
You may not see a flying Lightning at a UK airshow, but just wanted to remind those not in the know, that you can still enjoy the next best thing, live Lightnings running and doing fast runs down the runway, at the Bruntingthorpe Cold War jets day on Sunday 24 th May, along with VC10, Victor, Bucceneers, Comet etc. Its an amazing day, well worth checking out. I've been to many and I would not miss it for anything.
First time I can actually recall seeing one in the air was at the Biggin Hill Battle of Britain Day 1976. I watched this little speck in the distance growing rapidly and arriving more or less ahead of its noise... I assume it was a touring act rather than being based at Biggin for the show - bit short for Lightning ops?
I'm pretty sure it took off from Biggin though, but then again, it was over 40 years ago and I wasn't on crowd line. Biggin's runway is about the same length as North Weald's, and I can definately remember a pair of Lightnings being in the static park at the North Weald Fighter Meet airshow in 1986. They weren't in the flying display, but 10 mins after the last display item, just after the show ended on the Sunday and people were leaving (the World Cup final was that afternoon evening IIRC) I heard the distinctive whee-whoosh of Avpin and the rumble of starting Avons......The take-off and subsequent airfield beat-up was mighty impressive
The last rotation take-off I saw was the F.6 and T.5 departure from the static just after the last display item on Sunday at Mildenhall '88, similar to North Weald above. I think IB was flying the F.6?
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Geeram, I did the 86 North Weald show on the Saturday so didn't see the Lightnings depart. But I do recall the Northwest 747 and its fighter escorts. All very low...!
I simply don't recall Lightnings on the ground at Biggin but much addling of the grey calls has occurred; I think F-16s always flew from Manston (and once displayed at Kenley in error much to Ken Fitzroy's fury/amusement), but then again Orbis squeezed their DC-8 and DC-10 in as did an RAF VC-10...
I simply don't recall Lightnings on the ground at Biggin but much addling of the grey calls has occurred; I think F-16s always flew from Manston (and once displayed at Kenley in error much to Ken Fitzroy's fury/amusement), but then again Orbis squeezed their DC-8 and DC-10 in as did an RAF VC-10...
'nowt drogue lights in my day'
Definitely there in my time (early to mid 70s). Unfortunately they were less than reliable and one was often confronted with only one. The subsequent guessing which one it was as you closed often made for an interesting addition to the ensuing jousting contest .
Definitely there in my time (early to mid 70s). Unfortunately they were less than reliable and one was often confronted with only one. The subsequent guessing which one it was as you closed often made for an interesting addition to the ensuing jousting contest .
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Colleagues, this thread has emerged from deep cyberspace and, should anyone read it, let me add a few facts.
I did prefer XM 214 to its brother 215 - the aerodynamics were better i.e.215 was a bit twisted. I always flew the aeros routine with finned missiles as they improved the stability in the vertical plane - very handy when getting a bit low on pulling out of a loop or executing the prohibited 'Derry' turn.
The Paris Air Show required large airshow ID on the fin and, I think, it was the team's idea to display the Union Flag ( not called the Jack as that term only applies when it is flown on a jackstay on a ship. Why did we display a F1A at the PAS? Later, when still on the OCU, I borrowed an F6 for shows in Canada and the USA.
The blue smoke modification was wholly unofficial and my agreement with the Chief who installed it was that I would drop it into the North Sea if there was any trouble. The back end of a standard 250 gall. ventral was blanked off, a fuel pump from a SAR helicopter installed and pipe work clipped along the outside of the fuselage to the bottom engine jet pipe. Elec power was taken from the rear nav light. I think it was a 'display only' fit but if the jet was flown at night, any residual smoke oil would be ejected when taxying out to the dismay of the ground crew. The smoke oil was copied from the Reds who had Gnats at the time - DERV with blue biro ink and very messy. The main problem with it was the reheat temperature vaporised the smoke and not much use in my display. On the run-in, as per the photo, it had some use but at 50 ft or so there was risk to anyone on the ground. Did the baby in the pram suffer any ill-effects? ( see photo passing the GCA hut). I have recently spoken with a local farmer who was a bit worried about his strawberry crop! Risk management wasn't on the agenda in 1968 and we were lucky to escape a claim which would have exposed the smoke mod. to scrutiny
Happy days.
I did prefer XM 214 to its brother 215 - the aerodynamics were better i.e.215 was a bit twisted. I always flew the aeros routine with finned missiles as they improved the stability in the vertical plane - very handy when getting a bit low on pulling out of a loop or executing the prohibited 'Derry' turn.
The Paris Air Show required large airshow ID on the fin and, I think, it was the team's idea to display the Union Flag ( not called the Jack as that term only applies when it is flown on a jackstay on a ship. Why did we display a F1A at the PAS? Later, when still on the OCU, I borrowed an F6 for shows in Canada and the USA.
The blue smoke modification was wholly unofficial and my agreement with the Chief who installed it was that I would drop it into the North Sea if there was any trouble. The back end of a standard 250 gall. ventral was blanked off, a fuel pump from a SAR helicopter installed and pipe work clipped along the outside of the fuselage to the bottom engine jet pipe. Elec power was taken from the rear nav light. I think it was a 'display only' fit but if the jet was flown at night, any residual smoke oil would be ejected when taxying out to the dismay of the ground crew. The smoke oil was copied from the Reds who had Gnats at the time - DERV with blue biro ink and very messy. The main problem with it was the reheat temperature vaporised the smoke and not much use in my display. On the run-in, as per the photo, it had some use but at 50 ft or so there was risk to anyone on the ground. Did the baby in the pram suffer any ill-effects? ( see photo passing the GCA hut). I have recently spoken with a local farmer who was a bit worried about his strawberry crop! Risk management wasn't on the agenda in 1968 and we were lucky to escape a claim which would have exposed the smoke mod. to scrutiny
Happy days.
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I was a lowly stude going’s through the Lightning OCU in late 1968/early 69. To this day I can recall a brochure extolling the F104 lying around the crew room.
The brochure proudly proclaimed that the Starfighter was the only aircraft in the world that could enter a loop immediately after takeoff and the only pilot who could do this was Ed ‘Snake’ Rivers. Added to this was ‘and Bob “Feet” Lightfoot’.
Apologies if the details aren’t 100% after some 50 years but the sentiment is accurate!
The brochure proudly proclaimed that the Starfighter was the only aircraft in the world that could enter a loop immediately after takeoff and the only pilot who could do this was Ed ‘Snake’ Rivers. Added to this was ‘and Bob “Feet” Lightfoot’.
Apologies if the details aren’t 100% after some 50 years but the sentiment is accurate!
