Heston: wartime crashes and incidents
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Heston: wartime crashes and incidents
As suggested by A30yoyo.... I thought I would start a Heston wartime crashes thread, as there a few interesting ones coming out of the woodwork.
To kick off, here is an account found on th net
and a slightly different version of the same incident, also googled
Can anyone add anything? were there casualties or not? Where actually did it crash? There was always a local rumour that a B17 had crashed and damaged the house that still stands on the corner of Fern Lane and North Hyde Lane (th ehouse has a distinctive scar in the rendering on the side wall), but I had always dismissed this assuming people were confusing it with the Gaston Riggs Mustang that hit Grange Farm house and would have been a approach from the same direction but slightly to the south.
Can anyone add anything?
Do you know of any other incident in or around Heston??
To kick off, here is an account found on th net
I was plane spotting at Heston that day, aged almost twelve. It was 6th September 1943, two days before my twelfth birthday. Heston was the Fairy Aviation Company flight test airfield at that time. Most of the aircraft parts were made in a factory at Hayes and assembled at Heston. .The airfield was the largest in West London and it was from there that Neville Chamberlain flew to Munich to talk to Adolf Hitler in 1939. Fighter aircraft for Royal Navy aircraft carriers were made at Heston and these had only one engine. On this particular day I heard a large aircraft with four engines sounding very rough approaching the airfield. I noticed that some of the engines had stopped and the other two did not sound very good and the aircraft was obviously in trouble. It was going to land whether it crashed or not as the engines did not sound as though they were going to run for much longer. The B.17 was just a little above the ground when it went out of sight behind the hangar and I heard a loud thud and just hoped that the crew had escaped. The aircraft was aiming for Heston but landed in a field just outside Heston airfield. An article by one of the crew members says, “During a raid on Stuttgart we were hit by flak (anti-aircraft shells) and attacked by FW 190 fighters after bombs away, losing both starboard engines.
Lt Kney (Captain) ordered “lighten the ship” and we ditched all removeable items. Reaching the English Channel we adopted crash positions in the radio room. The aircraft seemed to be doing OK so Lt Kney opted to attempt a forced landing at RAF Heston.
Upon our approach we lost the third engine, overshooting the runway we lost the fourth engine. We made a gear down landing on waste ground ( the rear gunner says a wheatfield) and came to an abrupt stop,when we hit an anti-glider stake, which embedded itself into our port wing root”.
Local householders came out with tea, sandwiches and cakes, saying , “Well done Yanks” I have since met only two people who saw the crash. One was a Foreman at British Airways and the other I met on a coach when members of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers visited RAF St Athan.
I wrote to Mr Peter Caines and he kindly sent me some most interesting information.
He was able to tell me that the crew had all survived the crash without any injuries. The aircraft had been salvaged and repaired and flew again but was shot down during a raid on Schweinfurt in Germany on 14th October 1943. The crew were very fortunate once again as they all survived as prisoners of war and returned to America when the war ended. Peter Caines also sent me a photo of the crew, two pictures of the aircraft, which was named “Big Moose”, and an article written by the rear gunner and published in a magazine. I was very pleased to know, after 60 years, that the crew had all survived.
Lt Kney (Captain) ordered “lighten the ship” and we ditched all removeable items. Reaching the English Channel we adopted crash positions in the radio room. The aircraft seemed to be doing OK so Lt Kney opted to attempt a forced landing at RAF Heston.
Upon our approach we lost the third engine, overshooting the runway we lost the fourth engine. We made a gear down landing on waste ground ( the rear gunner says a wheatfield) and came to an abrupt stop,when we hit an anti-glider stake, which embedded itself into our port wing root”.
Local householders came out with tea, sandwiches and cakes, saying , “Well done Yanks” I have since met only two people who saw the crash. One was a Foreman at British Airways and the other I met on a coach when members of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers visited RAF St Athan.
I wrote to Mr Peter Caines and he kindly sent me some most interesting information.
He was able to tell me that the crew had all survived the crash without any injuries. The aircraft had been salvaged and repaired and flew again but was shot down during a raid on Schweinfurt in Germany on 14th October 1943. The crew were very fortunate once again as they all survived as prisoners of war and returned to America when the war ended. Peter Caines also sent me a photo of the crew, two pictures of the aircraft, which was named “Big Moose”, and an article written by the rear gunner and published in a magazine. I was very pleased to know, after 60 years, that the crew had all survived.
Heston Airport was close by and always busy with Flying Fortresses taking off and landing. When Audrey was eight years old she was in her garden, watching a Flying Fortress come in to land. It missed the runway and crashed into the cornfield at the back of their house. Straightaway she dashed out of the garden gate and started to run toward the plane. She had decided to try to rescue the pilot! As she ran a policeman stopped her.
“Where do you think you’re going?” he asked.
“I’m going to get the pilot out!” Audrey shouted.
“And how old are you?”
“Eight”
“Go on — you’d better get back home. There’s nothing you can do.”
Audrey was bitterly disappointed not to be able to do her brave and daring rescue, but also very worried about the pilot. She found out later that he had been killed in the crash.
Audrey and her friends used to like go to the Airport gate and hang around. The American airmen would often give them some chocolate and chat with them. She wondered then whether the dead pilot had once talked to her or given her some chocolate, and the thought that she might have met him still saddens her now.
“Where do you think you’re going?” he asked.
“I’m going to get the pilot out!” Audrey shouted.
“And how old are you?”
“Eight”
“Go on — you’d better get back home. There’s nothing you can do.”
Audrey was bitterly disappointed not to be able to do her brave and daring rescue, but also very worried about the pilot. She found out later that he had been killed in the crash.
Audrey and her friends used to like go to the Airport gate and hang around. The American airmen would often give them some chocolate and chat with them. She wondered then whether the dead pilot had once talked to her or given her some chocolate, and the thought that she might have met him still saddens her now.
Can anyone add anything?
Do you know of any other incident in or around Heston??
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Lt. Kney was my uncle
The pilot of that B17 I believe was my uncle and if it was he survived that Weston crash because my uncle died in a B-29 crash in the United States after his tour of duty in Europe. The only Kney's in the war (allies), were my father and my Uncle Lt. John Kney. My Uncle was a B-17 pilot (captain). I have a picture of him with his crew in front of his plane. I will look for the nick name on his aircraft.
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The picture in this link is my Uncle Lt. John Kney
The crew picture of "Big Moose" shot just after the crash in the following link.... Interests is the exact picture I have. I can confirm he did not die in the forced landing at Heston.
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Wow thanks for that.... great link.
Anyone know exactly where Big moose came down?? The reports suggest in landed in a cornfield... could this have been the Wheatlands at Heston or was this too far?
Anyone know exactly where Big moose came down?? The reports suggest in landed in a cornfield... could this have been the Wheatlands at Heston or was this too far?
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Miles Master crash Heston March 8 1942
The younger brother of sergeant pilot Tony Smith posted a message on www.honorourveterans.com about the takeoff crashof a 61 OTU Miles Master which caused his brothers death from burns in hospital and damaged several parked aircraft
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B17 Big Moose
My father flew on Big Moose after it was repaired after the crash in Heston. The plane was shot down. All crew members survived. Was wondering if you had anymore pictures of Big Moose from the prior crew your uncle Lt. Kney. I saw in your other posting that you had a link to the site I have in honor of my father Paul Spodar and his crew. Anymore information of the B17 Big Moose would be greatly appreciated.
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No more pictures.
Hi,
I'm sorry it has taken me 1 year to reply but I have been very busy! Haaaa no, I just don't get on here a lot. Because my uncle died on July 2, 1944 co-piloting a B-29 in the states there was never any real memorabilia or personal effects my family had of him... at least that survived. The only picture we had of him in relation to the Big Moose was the one you have seen. Feel free to contact me at [email protected].
Best.
Jack.
I'm sorry it has taken me 1 year to reply but I have been very busy! Haaaa no, I just don't get on here a lot. Because my uncle died on July 2, 1944 co-piloting a B-29 in the states there was never any real memorabilia or personal effects my family had of him... at least that survived. The only picture we had of him in relation to the Big Moose was the one you have seen. Feel free to contact me at [email protected].
Best.
Jack.
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Thanks
Much appreciated for your reply. Will continue to search for more information about the B17 Big Moose AKA Tough ****. I'm going to try to contact the Mighty 8th Museum and see if they can help.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
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Fern Lane crash
The crash into the house, corner of Fern Lane/North Hyde Lane, just outside the eastern Heston boundary, was neither the P51 (Grange Farm House - google "Woodasons"), nor the B17 (over the north west boundary, I think).
It was, wait for it......................a Ju88!
It had just happened (too recently for the road to yet be blocked off), as a gaggle of us walked home from Norwood Green School one afternoon - and I managed to "win" a small piece of its nose Perspex. My understanding was that it was a take off accident, so it was clearly not an enemy action incident. Allegedly, the pilot was unharmed and had calmly stepped out to use the phone box which used to stand on that corner, to ask the tower if they happened to have noticed.
Unfortunately though, I'm now unsure of exactly when it was, or even whether it was duriing WWII (in which case, presumably a 1426 Enemy Aircraft Flight machine), or perhaps after they had disbanded (January 1945) but when RAE Farnborough still had examples. Not even sure now what markings it had.
It was definitely a full greenhouse nose JU88 though, not a (fared in nose) fighter variant, let alone one with night fighter radar aerials. I'm also fairly sure the Perspex (added to my shrapnel collection but long since swapped for a newt in a jam jar, or similar!) was from a "beetle's eye" bomb aimer's flat pane, rather than from a curved moulding as used on say JU88S-1's.
Ever since Google arrived, I've been trying to get more info, without any success at all until googling "Fern Lane crash" tonight, instead of "Ju88 Heston". Now at least I know that somebody else knew something about it - I think, BTW, that the damage repair is still visible in Google Street View, around the house's front door area.
So, which aircraft was it? Wikipaedia's article on 1426 Flight only lists two JU88's with the right nose structure - an A-4 and an A-5. There's no information there on the fate of the A-4 but the A-5 (HM509, the "Chivenor Ju88") is said to have been written off following damage in a ground loop, while landing on 19 May 1944. The one I saw didn't really look like a ground loop though, to be honest, unless it just happened to finish up in perfect alignment for a normal, albeit aborted, eastbound Heston take off. I know that departing aircraft usually left the ground more or less over that spot, as I also remember climbing a small tree then on the airfield boundary about there, to watch my first jet (a Vampire) depart. However, the ground loop date could fit timewise - I would have been six, coming on seven, and walking home from school in a group of unescorted kids alright. Paedophiles - pah! We had to cope with Ju88's, not to mention falling V1's - at least two on the Cranford Lane side of the airfield, and several others locally.
Would a six year old have recognised a Ju88? Oh yes! In those days, small aero minded boys, of which I was definitely one, had an encyclopaedic knowledge of allied and axis aircraft. A few years later, I went on to represent 86(F) Sqdn ATC in national aircraft recognition competitions, so there!
Does anybody else have any information on that crash? Is anybody in contact with Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown, former O/C 1426 Flight and still very aviation active (non-flying), I believe - he would probably know the answer.
It was, wait for it......................a Ju88!
It had just happened (too recently for the road to yet be blocked off), as a gaggle of us walked home from Norwood Green School one afternoon - and I managed to "win" a small piece of its nose Perspex. My understanding was that it was a take off accident, so it was clearly not an enemy action incident. Allegedly, the pilot was unharmed and had calmly stepped out to use the phone box which used to stand on that corner, to ask the tower if they happened to have noticed.
Unfortunately though, I'm now unsure of exactly when it was, or even whether it was duriing WWII (in which case, presumably a 1426 Enemy Aircraft Flight machine), or perhaps after they had disbanded (January 1945) but when RAE Farnborough still had examples. Not even sure now what markings it had.
It was definitely a full greenhouse nose JU88 though, not a (fared in nose) fighter variant, let alone one with night fighter radar aerials. I'm also fairly sure the Perspex (added to my shrapnel collection but long since swapped for a newt in a jam jar, or similar!) was from a "beetle's eye" bomb aimer's flat pane, rather than from a curved moulding as used on say JU88S-1's.
Ever since Google arrived, I've been trying to get more info, without any success at all until googling "Fern Lane crash" tonight, instead of "Ju88 Heston". Now at least I know that somebody else knew something about it - I think, BTW, that the damage repair is still visible in Google Street View, around the house's front door area.
So, which aircraft was it? Wikipaedia's article on 1426 Flight only lists two JU88's with the right nose structure - an A-4 and an A-5. There's no information there on the fate of the A-4 but the A-5 (HM509, the "Chivenor Ju88") is said to have been written off following damage in a ground loop, while landing on 19 May 1944. The one I saw didn't really look like a ground loop though, to be honest, unless it just happened to finish up in perfect alignment for a normal, albeit aborted, eastbound Heston take off. I know that departing aircraft usually left the ground more or less over that spot, as I also remember climbing a small tree then on the airfield boundary about there, to watch my first jet (a Vampire) depart. However, the ground loop date could fit timewise - I would have been six, coming on seven, and walking home from school in a group of unescorted kids alright. Paedophiles - pah! We had to cope with Ju88's, not to mention falling V1's - at least two on the Cranford Lane side of the airfield, and several others locally.
Would a six year old have recognised a Ju88? Oh yes! In those days, small aero minded boys, of which I was definitely one, had an encyclopaedic knowledge of allied and axis aircraft. A few years later, I went on to represent 86(F) Sqdn ATC in national aircraft recognition competitions, so there!
Does anybody else have any information on that crash? Is anybody in contact with Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown, former O/C 1426 Flight and still very aviation active (non-flying), I believe - he would probably know the answer.
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War Prizes/ Phil Butler/ Midland Counties, page 85, a photograph of Ju-88G-6, Air Min32, W/Nr.622960 in a garden after overshooting Heston on landing 15th October 1945.
A/c was operated by the Fighter Interception Development Squadron of the Night Fighter Development Wing, Central Fighter Establishment at West Raynham.
Ciarain.
A/c was operated by the Fighter Interception Development Squadron of the Night Fighter Development Wing, Central Fighter Establishment at West Raynham.
Ciarain.
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Fern Lane crash
Result! Many thanks Ciarain. Copy just ordered from Amazon. Shows my 73 y.o. memory is not infallible then - must have been upper cockpit Perspex and it was a fared in nose version after all. Mind you, on reflection, the aircraft was pretty well embedded into the house anyway, so logically I might not have seen much if anything of the nose itself. Amaing how one strives to solve childhood riddles in one's dotage - could say not much else to do, except that I'm actually busier than I've ever been
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Not a bomber base
Greetings Props. Probably not, as I didn't join until 1951. I'll PM or email in case we were neighbours though.
On another tack, the statement in the first quote, part of the opening post here, that "Heston Airport was close by and always busy with Flying Fortresses taking off and landing.." is, of course, as inaccurate as my recollection of the Ju88's nose. structure. Heston, a grass field, with a max take off run of 3,000 feet, was too small to have ever been a bomber base of any sort - a laden B17 ("Flying Fortress"), for example, needed a minimum of about 4,000 feet to get safely airborne even from a hard runway.
Heston spent the war, initially as the original Spitfire-operating photo reconnaisance base, then as a pure fighter base with mainly Hurricanes or Spitfires, within 11 Group Fighter Command and subordinate to Northolt. Polish squadrons were frequently detached to Heston. In 1943-44, the Allied Expeditionary Force Communication Flight formed at Heston, with small communications types, before moving to Gatwick where it also operated larger aircraft into Europe after D-Day.
Probably, the largest warbirds regularly seen at Heston were the Turbinlite Havocs, developed and initially operated there in 1941, or possibly the Northrop Black Widow(s), much in evidence at the end of the war. Post war, Heston Aircraft Company did conversion work on Sea Hornets and they, plus Fireflies on test from Fairey's Hayes factory were the final warbirds to regularly be seen there.
On another tack, the statement in the first quote, part of the opening post here, that "Heston Airport was close by and always busy with Flying Fortresses taking off and landing.." is, of course, as inaccurate as my recollection of the Ju88's nose. structure. Heston, a grass field, with a max take off run of 3,000 feet, was too small to have ever been a bomber base of any sort - a laden B17 ("Flying Fortress"), for example, needed a minimum of about 4,000 feet to get safely airborne even from a hard runway.
Heston spent the war, initially as the original Spitfire-operating photo reconnaisance base, then as a pure fighter base with mainly Hurricanes or Spitfires, within 11 Group Fighter Command and subordinate to Northolt. Polish squadrons were frequently detached to Heston. In 1943-44, the Allied Expeditionary Force Communication Flight formed at Heston, with small communications types, before moving to Gatwick where it also operated larger aircraft into Europe after D-Day.
Probably, the largest warbirds regularly seen at Heston were the Turbinlite Havocs, developed and initially operated there in 1941, or possibly the Northrop Black Widow(s), much in evidence at the end of the war. Post war, Heston Aircraft Company did conversion work on Sea Hornets and they, plus Fireflies on test from Fairey's Hayes factory were the final warbirds to regularly be seen there.
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Heston Crashes and Incidents
Good stuff AWF118 and kieron kirk ! The Ju88 crash is new to me. I think Heston was closer to 5000 ft measuring from North Hyde Lane to Southall Lane . Fortresses and Liberators were recorded at Heston , though probably not fully loaded.(AW Ensigns, DC-3s and Dewoitine D.338s also used it with no problem) On the Heston Airport Yahoo Group we would like to find out the I.D. of a Liberator 'Ticket Home' reported to have crash-landed there and also the serial number of Curtiss LeMay's B-17 'Silver Queen' of which there is colour photographic evidence of a Heston visit
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Vampire at Heston
This may have been at the Oct 1945 Fleet Air Arm display at Heston (second half of this video)Error Occurred While Processing Request
(edit....The link works for me, anyway! If it doesnt work it's Movietone 46099 , you might have to sign up))
(edit....The link works for me, anyway! If it doesnt work it's Movietone 46099 , you might have to sign up))
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Grass runway length and Ju88 crash
Glad that between us we've put the Ju88 on record here - and glad, to be honest, to have confirmation I didn't dream it.
The grass runway at Heston was 1000 yards long in 1939, as shown on the Air Ministry plan, p153 in Tim Sherwood's "Coming in to Land" - but by 1945, according to an aerial photograph I have, the eastern boundary (only) had extended to the pre-war planned "superstandard airport" line, i.e., to the present line of North Hyde Lane. Scaling one against the other, it looks as though the final run may have been about 3,850 feet. Anybody know for sure? Yes, larger aircraft did use Heston intermittently but presumably not with full ordnance loads in the case of the bombers. What was inaccurate about the quotation was the statement that "Heston Airport was close by and always busy with Flying Fortresses taking off and landing", giving the impression it was a bomber base.
Incidentally, "Winkle" Brown tells us, in "Wings of the Luftwaffe", that wheel brakes on WWII German aircraft were generally very poor. His first Ju88 test flight (the "Chivenor" Ju88-A5) surprised him in revealing efficient brakes for once - but, of course, by the time Junkers reached the G-6 night fighter variant, the Ju88 was a much heavier beast. I also wonder whether the general brake inefficiencies he found were due to one of the raw material shortages the Third Reich chronically suffered from - something absent from their brake pad compositions perhaps? Anyway, it would be interesting to know whether failing brakes on a heavy machine caused the Heston accident, or was it pilot error, wet grass or exactly what? Oh dear, I've started another hare running!
The grass runway at Heston was 1000 yards long in 1939, as shown on the Air Ministry plan, p153 in Tim Sherwood's "Coming in to Land" - but by 1945, according to an aerial photograph I have, the eastern boundary (only) had extended to the pre-war planned "superstandard airport" line, i.e., to the present line of North Hyde Lane. Scaling one against the other, it looks as though the final run may have been about 3,850 feet. Anybody know for sure? Yes, larger aircraft did use Heston intermittently but presumably not with full ordnance loads in the case of the bombers. What was inaccurate about the quotation was the statement that "Heston Airport was close by and always busy with Flying Fortresses taking off and landing", giving the impression it was a bomber base.
Incidentally, "Winkle" Brown tells us, in "Wings of the Luftwaffe", that wheel brakes on WWII German aircraft were generally very poor. His first Ju88 test flight (the "Chivenor" Ju88-A5) surprised him in revealing efficient brakes for once - but, of course, by the time Junkers reached the G-6 night fighter variant, the Ju88 was a much heavier beast. I also wonder whether the general brake inefficiencies he found were due to one of the raw material shortages the Third Reich chronically suffered from - something absent from their brake pad compositions perhaps? Anyway, it would be interesting to know whether failing brakes on a heavy machine caused the Heston accident, or was it pilot error, wet grass or exactly what? Oh dear, I've started another hare running!
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Vampire at Heston
Fantastic Movietone footage thanks - even though I can't actually be seen up my tree ("...I also remember climbing a small tree then on the airfield boundary about there, to watch my first jet (a Vampire) depart...").
Yes, that must have been the occasion, and I've found another ref, in the history of the Hornet, suggesting it was probably on 2 October 1945 - when the first two Sea Hornet prototypes were "..were shown to the public for the first time at a Press Show at Heston..." That answers another question: "my" tree might not have been there after the Ju88 shot across North Hyde Lane - probably a good job I wasn't up it that day, anyway!
Interesting that the first part of that Movietone clip covers the closing down ATA pageant at White Waltham, as I later worked, part-time while still at school, for Island Air Services at Heathrow, with their three pleasure flight Rapides. IAS was, of course, the baby of Monique Agazarian (Rendall at that time), an ex ATA pilot, and one of her other pilots was Suzanne Ashton (formerly Chapman) also ex ATA - I flew often with both of them.
Yes, that must have been the occasion, and I've found another ref, in the history of the Hornet, suggesting it was probably on 2 October 1945 - when the first two Sea Hornet prototypes were "..were shown to the public for the first time at a Press Show at Heston..." That answers another question: "my" tree might not have been there after the Ju88 shot across North Hyde Lane - probably a good job I wasn't up it that day, anyway!
Interesting that the first part of that Movietone clip covers the closing down ATA pageant at White Waltham, as I later worked, part-time while still at school, for Island Air Services at Heathrow, with their three pleasure flight Rapides. IAS was, of course, the baby of Monique Agazarian (Rendall at that time), an ex ATA pilot, and one of her other pilots was Suzanne Ashton (formerly Chapman) also ex ATA - I flew often with both of them.