Scimitar Crash nr Ben Vorlich 10 Nov 1959
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a Scimitar had a single hyd failure in the circuit followed by the second failure a foot or two above the ground, controls seized but was on the runway. Firing all four guns generally lead to a single failure so two guns only was the norm. Never had a failure in a Sea Hawk although flown for less hours.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Back in the UK from the Sunshine Island for the last 8 years.
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scimitar et al
Speechless Two - You are almost right except that Bush actually ejected and lived for around 24 hours; he ejected so low that he and his parachute passed through the fireball of the crashed Hunter which fused the canopy cords together before the chute was fully deployed. His arrival on terra firma was therefore such that although he survived the ejection - and in the process became the only Fleet Air Arm pilot (and probably the only pilot) to have ejected three times he subsequently died of his injuries. RIP.
Nigel Grier- Rees also ejected from a Hunter at Brawdy,having previously dead-sticked another from Lossie with a fuel problem at a disused airfield nearby during which he managed to avoid a practising learner driver adjacent to and concrete blocks scattered on the runway before tensioning the barbed wire fence at the end of the runway with his nosewheel door. No damage to man or mount.
He died whilst pruning a tree in his orchard. RIP also. A very nice guy with whom I had the pleasure to serve. Married a friend of my wife's.
Nigel Grier- Rees also ejected from a Hunter at Brawdy,having previously dead-sticked another from Lossie with a fuel problem at a disused airfield nearby during which he managed to avoid a practising learner driver adjacent to and concrete blocks scattered on the runway before tensioning the barbed wire fence at the end of the runway with his nosewheel door. No damage to man or mount.
He died whilst pruning a tree in his orchard. RIP also. A very nice guy with whom I had the pleasure to serve. Married a friend of my wife's.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: East Ecosse
Age: 71
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sailor - Scimitar et al
Many, many thanks guys for the poignant and 1st hand memories of our recent history - no I'm not writing a book/making the programme, but my late uncle had a senior position with EE designing the Frightning. My family tales have always included this sort of thing. Some day more work will have to be done to preserve memories like this.
Keep 'em coming...
Kind Regards
M
Keep 'em coming...
Kind Regards
M
Last edited by mustpost; 16th Aug 2008 at 21:19.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those still interested there is a book published by Air Britain called the 'Scimitar file' - its got the lot! I bought my copy at the Museum shop at Yeovilton.
Regards to all the ex Scimitar drivers still around.
Regards to all the ex Scimitar drivers still around.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burgess Hill
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Memories
My first squadron ( I was an engineer) after completing apprentice course was 736 Sq which I joined in April 1962. I thought it was an awesome machine ( my contemporaries went to 738 & 764 -Hunters -paah !). I recall seeing Lt Cdr Grier-Rees name painted on the cockpit of one of the aircraft and the most recent additions to this thread brings to mind attending Lt Skrodski's funeral at the cemetery on the Milltown road. - not a week went by at Lossie ( as I recall) but something somewhere didn't spear in on approach/takeoff or on some hillside in Scotland .
Scimitar
Fascinating discussion on a very important aeroplane, from the point of view that it was the RN's first supersonic, nuclear-capable aircraft.
If I may add to the topic, I first flew the Scimitar (XD228. '613' 736 Sqdn.) on the 13th.September, 1963. I was 24.
To deal with a couple of points, firstly the aircraft used to lose fuel when parked because of the construction of the integral wing tanks. Basically the wing skin was lined with fuel-proof fabric. Constant movement/flexing led to the continuous weeping of fuel through the wing skin and looked like condensation on the outside. This just dripped all over hangar floor.
The second point concerns the hydraulic systems. The problem was that they operated at a much higher pressure (2500/4000psi) than I think ever before. Even the EMC motor /pump unit (PTO) operated at 4000psi. This of course led to numerous leaks and failures and, as has been mentioned, eventual failure of both systems led to control system failure. The highest operating pressure that I ever encountered subsequently, in a civilian aeroplane, was in the Douglas DC9. This was 3200psi but, in this case, always automatically idled at 1500psi when not in use.
The aircraft itself for a young pilot was amazing. The acceleration was astonishing after the Hunter and the rate of climb (at that time) with just inboard drops was initially about 15000ft/min.; time to 40000, about 4 mins.
Therein lies the rub with the Scimitar though - same engines virtually as the Lightning but no reheat. As the Americans were perported to have commented, "Who could have built an aircraft with all that power that wasn't supersonic in level flight" !
Oh, just a quick question for INDIA 42.
When NG-R went in, wasn't it nearly dark ? Hence the reason for ejecting over land.
If the situation was such that a safe landing could not be achieved, SOPs were normally to eject just off the coast if poss. for heli rescue.
If the sea temp.was ridiculous or daylight was running out, then Dava (spelling?) Moor was recommended as more survivable ?
If I may add to the topic, I first flew the Scimitar (XD228. '613' 736 Sqdn.) on the 13th.September, 1963. I was 24.
To deal with a couple of points, firstly the aircraft used to lose fuel when parked because of the construction of the integral wing tanks. Basically the wing skin was lined with fuel-proof fabric. Constant movement/flexing led to the continuous weeping of fuel through the wing skin and looked like condensation on the outside. This just dripped all over hangar floor.
The second point concerns the hydraulic systems. The problem was that they operated at a much higher pressure (2500/4000psi) than I think ever before. Even the EMC motor /pump unit (PTO) operated at 4000psi. This of course led to numerous leaks and failures and, as has been mentioned, eventual failure of both systems led to control system failure. The highest operating pressure that I ever encountered subsequently, in a civilian aeroplane, was in the Douglas DC9. This was 3200psi but, in this case, always automatically idled at 1500psi when not in use.
The aircraft itself for a young pilot was amazing. The acceleration was astonishing after the Hunter and the rate of climb (at that time) with just inboard drops was initially about 15000ft/min.; time to 40000, about 4 mins.
Therein lies the rub with the Scimitar though - same engines virtually as the Lightning but no reheat. As the Americans were perported to have commented, "Who could have built an aircraft with all that power that wasn't supersonic in level flight" !
Oh, just a quick question for INDIA 42.
When NG-R went in, wasn't it nearly dark ? Hence the reason for ejecting over land.
If the situation was such that a safe landing could not be achieved, SOPs were normally to eject just off the coast if poss. for heli rescue.
If the sea temp.was ridiculous or daylight was running out, then Dava (spelling?) Moor was recommended as more survivable ?
Last edited by Sleeve Wing; 24th Aug 2008 at 17:49.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning
Age: 63
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I tried searching for some video of a Scimitar. I can't find any on YouTube at the moment but I found this flight simulator footage which is much better quality than I expected. It's worth a look; YouTube - AlphaSim Supermarine Scimitar F.Mk.1
Sleeve Wing,
The article says that he baled out "in the afternoon". He is quoted as having walked for four or five hours before taking shelter in a hut, but it is not clear how much of that time was in the dark.
Since he had a double-hydraulic failure, with no manual reversion, I expect his choice of ejection location was limited to wherever he found himself in the next few seconds
The article says that he baled out "in the afternoon". He is quoted as having walked for four or five hours before taking shelter in a hut, but it is not clear how much of that time was in the dark.
Since he had a double-hydraulic failure, with no manual reversion, I expect his choice of ejection location was limited to wherever he found himself in the next few seconds
> Since he had a double-hydraulic failure, with no manual reversion, I expect his choice of ejection location was limited to wherever he found himself in the next few seconds <
Yep, IF2, I'll go with that.
Seem to remember though that it was just a gear problem and gear up landings on the concrete were not recommended. Hence positioning to find somewhere to leave the aeroplane ? I'm open to other options though.
Yep, IF2, I'll go with that.
Seem to remember though that it was just a gear problem and gear up landings on the concrete were not recommended. Hence positioning to find somewhere to leave the aeroplane ? I'm open to other options though.
Sleeve Wing,
The article states that the problem occurred at 26,000' and the ejection was at 20,000'. If correct that doesn't really sound like a gear problem.
Slight thread drift, but since you are an ex-Scimitar pilot, you may be able to answer my question. At Farnborough in the early 60s, I remember seeing a buddy-tankering demo, which I think involved Scimitars. Did Scimitars have this capability, either tanker or receiver?
I42
The article states that the problem occurred at 26,000' and the ejection was at 20,000'. If correct that doesn't really sound like a gear problem.
Slight thread drift, but since you are an ex-Scimitar pilot, you may be able to answer my question. At Farnborough in the early 60s, I remember seeing a buddy-tankering demo, which I think involved Scimitars. Did Scimitars have this capability, either tanker or receiver?
I42
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Fife
Age: 87
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did Scimitars have this capability, either tanker or receiver?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vixen pilots name was Tarver. Observers name was Stutchbury, I did some of his training.
There are/were some videos of Farnborough of the fifties and sixties that have Scimitar footage on them. 800 and 804 Squadrons feature. I occasionally watch them and have a little cry into my Scotch.
There are/were some videos of Farnborough of the fifties and sixties that have Scimitar footage on them. 800 and 804 Squadrons feature. I occasionally watch them and have a little cry into my Scotch.
"Stumpy" Faulkner
Does anybody remember my ex – best mate Graham “Stumpy” Faulkner? Sadly he died 20+ years ago in a car accident but he used to regale me with tales of the Scimitar whilst we spent every day off for 4 years building a boat in the early 80s. Rumour had it he was involved in an ejection in the Indian Ocean but since his name doesn’t appear in the list of ejectees on the Project Get Out and Walk website I may have this confused in the mists of time.
Stumpy was a larger than life character – the life and soul of every party and a stalwart of the BA BAC 1-11 flight in Berlin where he supplemented his income by relieving all and sundry of their allowances in the hotel crew room of an evening at the interminable poker games.
I have seen a photo of him being presented to the Queen Mum at the recommissioning of a carrier (Ark Royal?) in Birkenhead (near where he was brought up) in the early 60s as a baby faced sylph shaped midshipman pilot – ten years later he was as wide as he was tall but a giant sized character and an excellent friend, long gone now but never forgotten. His funeral was the biggest piss-up I ever attended, as he would have wished, along with dozens of others and conducted by the RC padre from his time at Lossie.
Stumpy was a larger than life character – the life and soul of every party and a stalwart of the BA BAC 1-11 flight in Berlin where he supplemented his income by relieving all and sundry of their allowances in the hotel crew room of an evening at the interminable poker games.
I have seen a photo of him being presented to the Queen Mum at the recommissioning of a carrier (Ark Royal?) in Birkenhead (near where he was brought up) in the early 60s as a baby faced sylph shaped midshipman pilot – ten years later he was as wide as he was tall but a giant sized character and an excellent friend, long gone now but never forgotten. His funeral was the biggest piss-up I ever attended, as he would have wished, along with dozens of others and conducted by the RC padre from his time at Lossie.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: southampton
Age: 95
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was on 807 at Lossie at the time the Grier-Rees incident happened. Think it was only a day before we heard of his recovery. Double hydraulic failure usually associated with the pumps but more likely a leak somewhere which emptied the systems (two pumps on each engine cross linked for single engine performance).
Lt Grier-Rees was a nice bloke who came back to a bit of a cheer from the lads as I recall.
Lt Grier-Rees was a nice bloke who came back to a bit of a cheer from the lads as I recall.
Last edited by Mech one; 11th Mar 2009 at 05:36.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: southampton
Age: 95
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bit suprised no mention yet of the incident involving the Scimitar landing by Cmdr Russell (803) and his untimely death following the wire failure on the Victorious. I was on the flight deck at the time and felt like jumping in to get him out. It seems the rating dangling from the rescue chopper was unable to help not knowing how to eject the hood at the time.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: crewe
Age: 77
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remember when the Scimitars Disbanded at Lossiemouth 65/66?? and were locked up in the hangar next to ours, 809 buccaneers. Use to sneak in for a look. Awesome sight I thought for a junior Pinkie. The Tankers had a beer foaming tankard painted on the Tail
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: southampton
Age: 95
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all its little niggles the Scimitar was a great aircraft and has a soft spot in my memories.
I joined 700X Sqdn at RNAS Ford in November 1957, the Scimitar trials unit. We worked in shifts around the clock at a pace for six months. The CO was Cmdr Innes (brother of Hammond Innes) and he kept a 'personal' Sea Vampire in the hangar as a run around when he wasn't in a Scimitar. I believe he had a reputation as a bit of a hard man from a pilots perspective but was a right gent to the ground crews. Sadly, he died in a road crash at the Devils Punchbowl, as I recall, just before 803 Sqdn formed up.
On the 28th May 1958 we all traipsed off the Lossiemouth and were redesignated 803 Squadron. Cmdr Des Russell became the CO and Lt Cmdr (E) Titford, who was also ex-700X, continued as the AEO. There were some great characters amongst the jockeys. Lt Cmdr Higgs (Senior 'P') become CO when Des Russell died after making a text book landing on the Victorious only to be let down by the ships arrester system.
Legendary flyers such as 'Ali' Barber, Ted Anson, Casperd, Beyfus, Beard and Leece all gave us plenty to do and talk about.
In February 1959, as the birth of my daughter was to coincide with the squdron going off to the US, I was given a 'pier head' jump to 807 Sqdn to continue sorting out the 'beasts' for a further year before transferring to the 764 Sqdn (Hunter) comfort zone !
The leaks we all remember, the drip trays the dustbins, etc., were mainly caused by small defects in the PRC coating inside the wings. When built in the factory the hollow wings were put on a tumbler rig and hot PRC injected into them and tumbled until all the inner surfaces were deemed to have been covered...or not ! I recall changing the stbd mainplane in 'C' Hangar on the Vic whilst the rest of the squadron went off to Malta for a jolly....the ultimate attempt to cure a fuel leak!
The Scimitar was certainly an aircraft built to test the skills of all who were brave enough to take them on.
I joined 700X Sqdn at RNAS Ford in November 1957, the Scimitar trials unit. We worked in shifts around the clock at a pace for six months. The CO was Cmdr Innes (brother of Hammond Innes) and he kept a 'personal' Sea Vampire in the hangar as a run around when he wasn't in a Scimitar. I believe he had a reputation as a bit of a hard man from a pilots perspective but was a right gent to the ground crews. Sadly, he died in a road crash at the Devils Punchbowl, as I recall, just before 803 Sqdn formed up.
On the 28th May 1958 we all traipsed off the Lossiemouth and were redesignated 803 Squadron. Cmdr Des Russell became the CO and Lt Cmdr (E) Titford, who was also ex-700X, continued as the AEO. There were some great characters amongst the jockeys. Lt Cmdr Higgs (Senior 'P') become CO when Des Russell died after making a text book landing on the Victorious only to be let down by the ships arrester system.
Legendary flyers such as 'Ali' Barber, Ted Anson, Casperd, Beyfus, Beard and Leece all gave us plenty to do and talk about.
In February 1959, as the birth of my daughter was to coincide with the squdron going off to the US, I was given a 'pier head' jump to 807 Sqdn to continue sorting out the 'beasts' for a further year before transferring to the 764 Sqdn (Hunter) comfort zone !
The leaks we all remember, the drip trays the dustbins, etc., were mainly caused by small defects in the PRC coating inside the wings. When built in the factory the hollow wings were put on a tumbler rig and hot PRC injected into them and tumbled until all the inner surfaces were deemed to have been covered...or not ! I recall changing the stbd mainplane in 'C' Hangar on the Vic whilst the rest of the squadron went off to Malta for a jolly....the ultimate attempt to cure a fuel leak!
The Scimitar was certainly an aircraft built to test the skills of all who were brave enough to take them on.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: crewe
Age: 77
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah the forever Serviceable Hunters. We had 738 sqdn (Peagasus?) In the next hangar to ours at Lossie 809 Buccs. The tractor driver had all the A/C ranged on the line every morning "S" about 12 A/C. Max we ever did was 5!!! mind you we only had 8?
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: crewe
Age: 77
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scimitars Beer foaming Tankard http://usera.ImageCave.com/scouse/Un..._again!(1).jpg
http://usera.ImageCave.com/scouse/Un..._again!(1).jpg