Grounding of DC3's
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Ok, the DC-3 does have its ah...difficulties, the hydraulic system is such that a loss of all hydraulic pressure results in the landing gear extending (thunk!), the generators need the field flashed from time to time, the (many) wing bolts (and the attach angles) are subject to AD's, but hey, IF looked after properly, is certainly a safe aircraft.
And yes, I have a fair amount of time in command in the DC-3, so I am an authority, you can be sure....it is the only aeroplane that I have flown that is older than me....
And yes, I have a fair amount of time in command in the DC-3, so I am an authority, you can be sure....it is the only aeroplane that I have flown that is older than me....
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Excuse my ignorance of the rules, especially in the EU, but isn't there still such a thing as Grandfather Rights?
Many other Aircraft like for example DC9s and B727s would not meet some of the current regs, but I understood that as long as someone paid to keep them airworthy they could continue to operate under these Grandfather Rights?
Personally I would feel MUCH safer on a properly maintained DC3 than on many a modern Aircraft that complied with all the rules and regs.
Many other Aircraft like for example DC9s and B727s would not meet some of the current regs, but I understood that as long as someone paid to keep them airworthy they could continue to operate under these Grandfather Rights?
Personally I would feel MUCH safer on a properly maintained DC3 than on many a modern Aircraft that complied with all the rules and regs.
Oh yes those wing bolts, I've just in the last few weeks had the privilege to remove quite a number of them 
in the process of assisting in a major inspection on a Dak.
I say a privilege because it really is such to be able to work on, and fly, such a piece of history. A machine that has been almost everywhere it's possible for a 'plane to go and has proven itself in so many spheres of aviation, be it war, agriculture, freight and of course - most importantly - passenger services.
I've no idea just how many people the DC3 has safely carried but it's obviously in the millions. Given the lifespan of the Dak I'm sure it's possible to come to some sort of conclusion, from accident reports, just how much difference that extra 4" of height from the emergency exit makes. Perhaps with reports on other aspects of DC3 flying over the years it will be possible to demonstrate a reasonable safety level equivalency of the DC3 to other aircraft types. In addition to this anyone flying in them would be aware that they're unlikely to have the same sort of features as a plane 70 years its junior and so, just as in any aspect of life, there's an element of risk involved in stepping inside one. Pragmatically there ought to be some way of satisfying the EU safety requirements for such low annual hour historical machines, even if it's necessary to placard each seat with its comparable 'deficiencies'.
In any event I was pleased to read that the UK CAA are supportive of the DC3's. I trust they are able to find a way to allow the DC3 to continue flying in their present role and provide people with a real taste of early aviation history, rather than just get to read about it. If a picture paints a thousand words then the actual experience must surely be worth a great deal more and to those interested in such things it would be a very sad day if they were prevented from participating in that experience.
in the process of assisting in a major inspection on a Dak.I say a privilege because it really is such to be able to work on, and fly, such a piece of history. A machine that has been almost everywhere it's possible for a 'plane to go and has proven itself in so many spheres of aviation, be it war, agriculture, freight and of course - most importantly - passenger services.
I've no idea just how many people the DC3 has safely carried but it's obviously in the millions. Given the lifespan of the Dak I'm sure it's possible to come to some sort of conclusion, from accident reports, just how much difference that extra 4" of height from the emergency exit makes. Perhaps with reports on other aspects of DC3 flying over the years it will be possible to demonstrate a reasonable safety level equivalency of the DC3 to other aircraft types. In addition to this anyone flying in them would be aware that they're unlikely to have the same sort of features as a plane 70 years its junior and so, just as in any aspect of life, there's an element of risk involved in stepping inside one. Pragmatically there ought to be some way of satisfying the EU safety requirements for such low annual hour historical machines, even if it's necessary to placard each seat with its comparable 'deficiencies'.
In any event I was pleased to read that the UK CAA are supportive of the DC3's. I trust they are able to find a way to allow the DC3 to continue flying in their present role and provide people with a real taste of early aviation history, rather than just get to read about it. If a picture paints a thousand words then the actual experience must surely be worth a great deal more and to those interested in such things it would be a very sad day if they were prevented from participating in that experience.
I can understand the regulations being applied to a type in regular passenger use, a GPWS would have prevented a Metro 3 from flying into mountains near Lockard River in Australia and killing all its occupants.
Surely a DC3 wouldn't be used in scheduled pax service again anywhere in the world, even darkest Africa has relatively modern turboprops.
A bunch of aviation enthusiasts having a weekend jolly to experience a bit of history could be warned at the time of booking that the aircraft doesn't meet modern safety standards and they fly at their own risk.
Next we'll have E Type Jaguars being pulled off the road to have airbags fitted.
I still have DC3 on my licence, but I don't expect to get a job flying one again.
Surely a DC3 wouldn't be used in scheduled pax service again anywhere in the world, even darkest Africa has relatively modern turboprops.
A bunch of aviation enthusiasts having a weekend jolly to experience a bit of history could be warned at the time of booking that the aircraft doesn't meet modern safety standards and they fly at their own risk.
Next we'll have E Type Jaguars being pulled off the road to have airbags fitted.
I still have DC3 on my licence, but I don't expect to get a job flying one again.
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Revolution worked for the French, so maybe one day the people of Europe will revolt against the EU. And let's face it, 95% of us want no part of it.
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I don't know...
The old girl has a certain charm, all right, but it sure isn't as safe as more modern aircraft. Lose one engine at the wrong time on take-off and if you are a pilot of average skill then you are probably going to have an accident, where the same thing in most modern aircraft is just a non-event. You "sky-gods" will find this just doesn't apply, of course, since you all have mega-thousands of accident-free hours and could probably fly the box the DC-3 was delivered in but I am speaking here of some guy who would be adequately safe in something built to keep him that way, not this antique with all of its ways to catch one out. As you guys hang up your headsets, what are we to do with this airplane if it calls for exceptional skills? (By that I mean simply, "exceptional by modern training standards.")
Someone here mentioned that the Dutch fly a DC-3. Well, I believe the Dutch Dakota Association lost one in an accident with some loss of life, when that is just the sort of thing to get the legislators excited.
If you cannot answer the stupid question, "Does this airplane meet the most modern safety standards?" with a "Yes," then the first instinct of the burocrats is to ground it. Even the partisans of the type know that the DC-3 was certified to standards that have been long superceded. That many more modern aircraft also have this problem, well, there are over-riding commercial reasons not to ground them that are absent in the case of the DC-3!
It used to be conventional wisdom that the -3 was unbustable, built in a time when everything was made twice as thick as necessary. Then one lost a wing in flight operating in an area of CBs. Oops!
I think we shall see the type go the way of the Curtiss Condor, sad to say. Get John Travolta to trade in that creaky old 707 for a Dak. That might be one way forward. Anyone else remember the Bagwash's private airline that served Rajneeshpuram (formerly Antelope), Oregon?
There were enough built that it shall never pass entirely from the scene, even if most end up as museum pieces or roadside taco stands.
I enjoyed my time in the type, window slid back, engines rumbling gently as this or that small island slid past on the way to Georgetown with a fresh load of rich German suckers on a freebie to look at a dream real-estate development. "Dream" in the sense that some scratches made with a D-8 out in the bush translated into a tropical paradise one should pay good money for. The free trip in the DC-3 was probably the best part of the whole deal.
Someone here mentioned that the Dutch fly a DC-3. Well, I believe the Dutch Dakota Association lost one in an accident with some loss of life, when that is just the sort of thing to get the legislators excited.
If you cannot answer the stupid question, "Does this airplane meet the most modern safety standards?" with a "Yes," then the first instinct of the burocrats is to ground it. Even the partisans of the type know that the DC-3 was certified to standards that have been long superceded. That many more modern aircraft also have this problem, well, there are over-riding commercial reasons not to ground them that are absent in the case of the DC-3!
It used to be conventional wisdom that the -3 was unbustable, built in a time when everything was made twice as thick as necessary. Then one lost a wing in flight operating in an area of CBs. Oops!
I think we shall see the type go the way of the Curtiss Condor, sad to say. Get John Travolta to trade in that creaky old 707 for a Dak. That might be one way forward. Anyone else remember the Bagwash's private airline that served Rajneeshpuram (formerly Antelope), Oregon?
There were enough built that it shall never pass entirely from the scene, even if most end up as museum pieces or roadside taco stands.
I enjoyed my time in the type, window slid back, engines rumbling gently as this or that small island slid past on the way to Georgetown with a fresh load of rich German suckers on a freebie to look at a dream real-estate development. "Dream" in the sense that some scratches made with a D-8 out in the bush translated into a tropical paradise one should pay good money for. The free trip in the DC-3 was probably the best part of the whole deal.
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Last flew one mosquito spraying in Florida in the 80's.
Wonder how the present breed of F/O's would handle getting the gear up and down? Or an engine out during gear transition?
I think it might be about time to pull the old girl out of regular pax service, sad though it might seem.
Wonder how the present breed of F/O's would handle getting the gear up and down? Or an engine out during gear transition?
I think it might be about time to pull the old girl out of regular pax service, sad though it might seem.
niknak
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Many of the posts have proved my point.
Flatfour + Chuck - no offence was intended, sometimes I am a bit blunt with the facts and that obviously rubs with people who have extensive experience and I have no more wish than you to see the red tape of Britain and Europe destroy our heritage.
35 years in aviation and ATC doesn't qualify me for anything in particular, but it has given me experience in working at every level and with the majority of the plethera of the trade, including 10 years with DC3s.
It appears that Air Alantique (AAG) have made this decision on commercial grounds, given their increasing costs and declining profit from the operation.
AAG have never operated on sentiment, it's why they've been around for so long.
If any heritage group wants to raise the cash privately to own and operate the aircraft, I have no doubt that AAG will be more than happy to do a deal on favourable terms and they'll have 100% support from all of us and the CAA.
I'm more than happy to help if I can.
Flatfour + Chuck - no offence was intended, sometimes I am a bit blunt with the facts and that obviously rubs with people who have extensive experience and I have no more wish than you to see the red tape of Britain and Europe destroy our heritage.
35 years in aviation and ATC doesn't qualify me for anything in particular, but it has given me experience in working at every level and with the majority of the plethera of the trade, including 10 years with DC3s.
It appears that Air Alantique (AAG) have made this decision on commercial grounds, given their increasing costs and declining profit from the operation.
AAG have never operated on sentiment, it's why they've been around for so long.
If any heritage group wants to raise the cash privately to own and operate the aircraft, I have no doubt that AAG will be more than happy to do a deal on favourable terms and they'll have 100% support from all of us and the CAA.
I'm more than happy to help if I can.
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Solution (which I believe would be supported in any referendum)....leave the EU and every self-indulgent, incestuous QUANGO that goes with it (viz EASA) to restore self-determination to this country's Parliament (and the CAA). A polite way of saying ...ss off Europe and mind your own business.
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I probably should stay out of these emotional discussions because my insight into the issue is blurred by time....
.....I get all mixed up trying to decide which is best....or even which is safer....flying an airplane like the DC3 or dealing with Normal law...Alternate law ....or Direct law.
.....I get all mixed up trying to decide which is best....or even which is safer....flying an airplane like the DC3 or dealing with Normal law...Alternate law ....or Direct law.
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MaxReheat,
As far as I know the U.K. was and still is a sovereign country. For some reason it's democratically elected government decided to join the E.U. If the majority of the British don't like it, they should elect another government, stop complaining and get out.
As far as I know the U.K. was and still is a sovereign country. For some reason it's democratically elected government decided to join the E.U. If the majority of the British don't like it, they should elect another government, stop complaining and get out.
There is no doubt that some of the rules coming out of Brussels are made by people who are not only technically incompetent, but arrogant with it. Professionally, I'm in the middle of a major battle in the radio field about a new rule which the whole of the industry says is disastrous, and the dirty tricks the Commission are trying to use to effectively blackmail sovereign states to accept it is almost beyond belief.
Keep the DC3 - Freedom's aeroplane!
Keep the DC3 - Freedom's aeroplane!
or perhaps they were, and now they finally have got there revenge 
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They are not GROUNDING, they are apply pax carrying safety rules. Get it right! We must be able to carry on carrying fare paying pax on preserved acft such as the C47/DC3. Please get your fact right before you bleat, otherwise you don't help our situation. Thanks for your sentiments and support.
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Originally Posted by merlinxx
They are not GROUNDING, they are apply pax carrying safety rules. Get it right! We must be able to carry on carrying fare paying pax on preserved acft such as the C47/DC3.
BTW, Buffalo Airways still operates DC3s in scheduled passenger service out of Yellowknife, Canada.
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QUOTE: "A polite way of saying ...ss off Europe and mind your own business."
I was told time and again, that the most rigid rules and some of the most stupid ones were brought into JAROPS 1 and EASA by the CAA. Certainly they are the most active and keen to regulate agency in Europe.
So: Keep Žem and leave the rest of us alone and get happy.
I was told time and again, that the most rigid rules and some of the most stupid ones were brought into JAROPS 1 and EASA by the CAA. Certainly they are the most active and keen to regulate agency in Europe.
So: Keep Žem and leave the rest of us alone and get happy.
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Marhubeng
Regrettably, no major UK political party has the courage of its conviction to actually put the option of 'getting out' to the UK population because the 'politcal chattering class' knows full well what the outcome would be - adios, adieu etc to Europe. Much of the fear of going full bore to resolve the issue is the fear of being branded, by our very influential and powerful media, as Eurosceptic/phobic as may well be the case and it is this force that the political parties fear more than its electorate' opinion. Such branding by the media wouldn't matter one iota to 'the man in the street' - all he/she would like is the opportunity to resolve the matter once and for all.
Regrettably, no major UK political party has the courage of its conviction to actually put the option of 'getting out' to the UK population because the 'politcal chattering class' knows full well what the outcome would be - adios, adieu etc to Europe. Much of the fear of going full bore to resolve the issue is the fear of being branded, by our very influential and powerful media, as Eurosceptic/phobic as may well be the case and it is this force that the political parties fear more than its electorate' opinion. Such branding by the media wouldn't matter one iota to 'the man in the street' - all he/she would like is the opportunity to resolve the matter once and for all.
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Paper Tiger & His Dudeness
Yup in Canukistan and other locations, they still op very well.
I did earlier suggest, just have the members fly, everyone can join a supporters club. Lets just keep them flying with people on board, that's why the heck were they built! How are you going to get modern slides etc on to a DC3, everybody up front and enjoy the escape rope!
A question, how many pax have been totaled in a preserved DC3/DH86/L749/DC4-6 over the last 20 years as against in production CL600 deritives?
I did earlier suggest, just have the members fly, everyone can join a supporters club. Lets just keep them flying with people on board, that's why the heck were they built! How are you going to get modern slides etc on to a DC3, everybody up front and enjoy the escape rope!
A question, how many pax have been totaled in a preserved DC3/DH86/L749/DC4-6 over the last 20 years as against in production CL600 deritives?