Munich accident 1958
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Munich accident 1958
50 years ago today.
The Airspeed Ambassador was coming out of BEA service at the time, they had been in service only a few years but were all withdrawn by 6 months after the accident. Wondering why the type was used for the flight instead of a Viscount, which BEA had a very large fleet of by 1958.
Was it just there were plenty of spare ones around for the charter ?
Was no turbine fuel available at Belgrade ? There were no other turbine operators scheduled into Belgrade in 1958.
Was the end of the Ambassador hastened as a type with BEA due to the adverse publicity ? Actually all the contemporary news articles I have seen call it an "Elizabethan", the BEA class name (at the time BEA used their own aircraft type names rather than those of the manufacturer for several types). I doubt many of the subsequent passengers knew the connection.
The Airspeed Ambassador was coming out of BEA service at the time, they had been in service only a few years but were all withdrawn by 6 months after the accident. Wondering why the type was used for the flight instead of a Viscount, which BEA had a very large fleet of by 1958.
Was it just there were plenty of spare ones around for the charter ?
Was no turbine fuel available at Belgrade ? There were no other turbine operators scheduled into Belgrade in 1958.
Was the end of the Ambassador hastened as a type with BEA due to the adverse publicity ? Actually all the contemporary news articles I have seen call it an "Elizabethan", the BEA class name (at the time BEA used their own aircraft type names rather than those of the manufacturer for several types). I doubt many of the subsequent passengers knew the connection.
hi whbm sorry i cant help you on the questions,
if yer interested on uktv history later today at 4pm is a 1hr docu about the crash
and at 10pm bbc4 another program very moving
also one minutes silence at the big footie game tonight
if yer interested on uktv history later today at 4pm is a 1hr docu about the crash
and at 10pm bbc4 another program very moving
also one minutes silence at the big footie game tonight
Thread Starter
Airspeed built the Ambassador at Christchurch, Hampshire, a wartime second location for them compared to their traditional home base in Portsmouth. They had built thousands of Consul twin-engined trainers/light transports for the RAF in the war.
The only significant order was for 20 from BEA, there were just a couple of oddball others. After BEA withdrew them they found a niche with independents - BKS, Autair, Dan-Air, Globe Air Switzerland, etc. Three were sold to Butler in Australia and actually delivered but something went wrong contractually and they were flown back to Britain again. It was a good, pressurized, 5-seats-across aircraft for the secondhand market in the 1950s, but presumably became difficult to support.
The only significant order was for 20 from BEA, there were just a couple of oddball others. After BEA withdrew them they found a niche with independents - BKS, Autair, Dan-Air, Globe Air Switzerland, etc. Three were sold to Butler in Australia and actually delivered but something went wrong contractually and they were flown back to Britain again. It was a good, pressurized, 5-seats-across aircraft for the secondhand market in the 1950s, but presumably became difficult to support.
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Historical Note...
Just noted that today is the 50th anniversary of the crash of BEA flight 609 in Munich, 6 Feb 1958, carrying the Manchester United football team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_air_disaster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_air_disaster
The hounding of Captain James Thain itself became something of a landmark in civil aviation history - or should have done...
For a telling description of the accident itself see:
http://www.thebusbybabes.com/munich/munich.htm
For a telling description of the accident itself see:
http://www.thebusbybabes.com/munich/munich.htm
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Crash occurred when I was 15. Some time later, I courted a young lady for a time, who was Capt. Rayment's niece. Later, helping a farmer friend to by an egg grader for his farm, called on someone selling one, none other than Capt.Thain. Bit spooky to have a connection with both pilots!!
My father was an Elizabethan captain with Butler Air Transport in the 1950's and always said he found flying the aircraft a pleasure, he subsequently went onto Convair 240's and hated them.
His memory of the type was a large well functioning cockpit and a very smooth flight characteristics.
Butlers only returned the aircraft to England because they had been taken over by Ansett Airlines and the aircraft didn't fit Reg Ansett's plans, as were the two herons Butler also operated.
Butlers also lost their two Viscounts which were transferred to Ansett mailine.
As an aside my father still has a large original wooden model of the Elizabethan sitting on his television painted in Butler colours.
His memory of the type was a large well functioning cockpit and a very smooth flight characteristics.
Butlers only returned the aircraft to England because they had been taken over by Ansett Airlines and the aircraft didn't fit Reg Ansett's plans, as were the two herons Butler also operated.
Butlers also lost their two Viscounts which were transferred to Ansett mailine.
As an aside my father still has a large original wooden model of the Elizabethan sitting on his television painted in Butler colours.
A decent man who was treated abysmally. The German failure to acknowledge slush as the cause, and the repeated attempts to try and pin the blame on a supposed failure to deice the wings was a cynical disgrace - and no-one did anything to help Thain to rehabillitate his reputation.
I met Ruby Thain a few years ago, and if she's still alive, and any PPRuNer knows her, please pass on my very best wishes. A dignified old girl who did more than BALPA or the UK Government to clear her husband's reputation.
We should remember Ken Rayment and Jimmy Thain as well as the Busby babes, and, who knows, even the eight or so journalists who died in the Ambassador that day.
I met Ruby Thain a few years ago, and if she's still alive, and any PPRuNer knows her, please pass on my very best wishes. A dignified old girl who did more than BALPA or the UK Government to clear her husband's reputation.
We should remember Ken Rayment and Jimmy Thain as well as the Busby babes, and, who knows, even the eight or so journalists who died in the Ambassador that day.
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They had built thousands of Consul twin-engined trainers/light transports for the RAF in the war.
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Landed in Munich on the tenth anniversary and was a bit surprised to find myself being interviewed on TV. I had not realised the significance of the date so I'm not too sure how the interview went!
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Decca Navigator also had one !
Dan Air lost one when the flap cross shaft sheared allowing one side flaps to retract on landing.
There were some spectacular pictures of this where it scythed across several aircraft.
The engine was a Bristol Centaurus Sleeve valve radial
With Autair the TBO was 2,200 hours compared with 1,400 on the DC3 P&W 1830
3 aircraft operating 2,500 hours a year had 3 unscheduled engine changes in 4 years
Dan Air lost one when the flap cross shaft sheared allowing one side flaps to retract on landing.
There were some spectacular pictures of this where it scythed across several aircraft.
The engine was a Bristol Centaurus Sleeve valve radial
With Autair the TBO was 2,200 hours compared with 1,400 on the DC3 P&W 1830
3 aircraft operating 2,500 hours a year had 3 unscheduled engine changes in 4 years
Dan Air lost one when the flap cross shaft sheared allowing one side flaps to retract on landing.
There were some spectacular pictures of this where it scythed across several aircraft....
it was a BKS a/c on a horse charter in summer 1968 at LHR
it sliced thru 2 BEA tridents and crashed into the britannic building
(now terminal 1)
the f/d crew were killed and the loadmaster i think
There were some spectacular pictures of this where it scythed across several aircraft....
it was a BKS a/c on a horse charter in summer 1968 at LHR
it sliced thru 2 BEA tridents and crashed into the britannic building
(now terminal 1)
the f/d crew were killed and the loadmaster i think
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I remember seeing a Dan-Air Ambassador start up at Liverpool airport on the service to Amsterdam they operated in the 1960s, once a day or less for which a dedicated Ambassador was outstationed at Liverpool.
The engines at startup gave off the largest cloud of smoke I have ever seen from an aircraft. It must have been a feature of the Centaurus as someone else from Heathrow once wrote that when an Ambassador started up "it was LVPs for 5 minutes".
Being a radial engine it had the usual problem that when parked a bit of lubricating oil from the crankshaft in the centre of the engine will gradually leak down into the lower cylinders and be burned off on startup, how much dependent on how tight the various components are. But I've never seen one this bad, it must have burned off about a pint of oil per engine. The Centaurus was a sleeve valve engine, which are particularly liable to such problems.
The engines at startup gave off the largest cloud of smoke I have ever seen from an aircraft. It must have been a feature of the Centaurus as someone else from Heathrow once wrote that when an Ambassador started up "it was LVPs for 5 minutes".
Being a radial engine it had the usual problem that when parked a bit of lubricating oil from the crankshaft in the centre of the engine will gradually leak down into the lower cylinders and be burned off on startup, how much dependent on how tight the various components are. But I've never seen one this bad, it must have burned off about a pint of oil per engine. The Centaurus was a sleeve valve engine, which are particularly liable to such problems.
I, ahh, understand that the recovery of one of the Tridents can be seen in the tit le sequence of a movie entitled, err, "Au Pair Girls*"....
Not that I could confirm that, you understand!
* which features Gabrielle Drake...........oooh, yes! Mmmmm....
Not that I could confirm that, you understand!
* which features Gabrielle Drake...........oooh, yes! Mmmmm....
Does anyone have a link to the 1969 Report which I seem to recall had as its title ''xxxxxxx and to consider whether blame should be imputed to Captain Thain''. Yes, I have searched.
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Can you get it on DVD BEags? Purley research for a Trident archive you understand...
Re the smokey Centaurus, the RNHF Sea Fury certainly belched out lots of smoke during start up at Duxford last July - can't say whether that's normal for a Centaurus though, but I should imagine it is.
Re the smokey Centaurus, the RNHF Sea Fury certainly belched out lots of smoke during start up at Duxford last July - can't say whether that's normal for a Centaurus though, but I should imagine it is.
treadigraph, my research indicates that the title is indeed available on DVD.....
Purely in the interest of science, were one to type 'Au Pair Girls' into the search function of a well-known 'Big River / woman with spear' website, one might be able to confirm such research results.
Or so I'm led to understand.
Purely in the interest of science, were one to type 'Au Pair Girls' into the search function of a well-known 'Big River / woman with spear' website, one might be able to confirm such research results.
Or so I'm led to understand.
