Falklands Crash Sites
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TEEEJ
Not sure about footage on Garcia Cuerva shot down on blue / blue -
Shot by 35 mm while atempting to land - 35 mm did not have camera option -
Plane inbound from west to east , just north of Sapper Hill using Helo path -I saw the palne crash on land , were it meets with the ocean - no ejection -
Regarde Enrique
Shot by 35 mm while atempting to land - 35 mm did not have camera option -
Plane inbound from west to east , just north of Sapper Hill using Helo path -I saw the palne crash on land , were it meets with the ocean - no ejection -
Regarde Enrique
Hi Enrique,
Thanks for the reply. The footage was most likely shot by an Argentine TV crew.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...h-sites-5.html
Dead pan wrote.
'A few years back I saw some footage taken of an Argentinian aircraft crashing onto a small peninsula (I'd never seen this before). The footage was taken at extreme range hence was hard to distinguish what aircraft was involved. Not sure who filmed this - it may have been one of the 'embedded' TV crews.'
Thanks for the reply. The footage was most likely shot by an Argentine TV crew.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...h-sites-5.html
Dead pan wrote.
'A few years back I saw some footage taken of an Argentinian aircraft crashing onto a small peninsula (I'd never seen this before). The footage was taken at extreme range hence was hard to distinguish what aircraft was involved. Not sure who filmed this - it may have been one of the 'embedded' TV crews.'
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Very fast: About Coventry´s Sea dart, they were fired at two different Learjet flights, missing in both cases. I have to look for the info but think it was a solitary Learjet in the first flight a nd two in the second. Coventry fired one missile on each aircraft, missing (one very close by the way). Coventry was placed around Stanley I think. Skyhawks were believed to crash in the air due to horrible bad weather: three other argentineans strike flights (looking for Coventry) had to abort due to poor visibility. Also in the day Coventry downed a Puma. I believe must be a video from Sea Wolf TV camera on HMS Brilliant (the Coventry´s company that day in the missile trap).
Navaleye about 1 May Invincible position, could place the one she had when Canberra flights aproached?
Edmund I´ll post the exact time of taking off and landing of that flights. Be patient. The exact time over the island must be suposed in the half of taking off and landing. But remember that Ward confused drop tanks with missiles also that day. Anyway there is no other testimony of the combat except for Martin and Tony. Although i still i´m trying to look for the Pucaras pilots on land (Goose Green) who wittnessed it.
Fortin flight pursued a Sea Harriers CAP that was following one of Torno Daggers. This plane had fuel transfer problems after his strike on british ships and had to go up to save and arrive home. Then a Sea Harrier CAP, probably guided by air controller began to pursuit him. All this was seen by the Malvinas radar who directed Fortin CAP to follow Sea Harriers CAP. It seemed like a race. A solitary Dagger (Torno) followed by 2 Sea Harriers and those followed by 2 Daggers (Fortin).All finally broke and everybody went home.
Regards from Spain
PS: Edmund I have to ask you about your combat on 8 june and Dave Morgan´s book. According to him, Héctor Sánchez, the argentienean survivor, had him in sight and could fire at you. In a BBC radio program, Héctor talked about having see both of you making a turn to avoid you. But also afirm to see the splashes around his plane, so he must be the pilot fired by Morgan, while you probably found your prey (Bolzan) by a sort of chance, cause he wásn´t the pilot fired by Dave, although had to be flying in a paralel course to Sánchez´s one. What do you think?
Navaleye about 1 May Invincible position, could place the one she had when Canberra flights aproached?
Edmund I´ll post the exact time of taking off and landing of that flights. Be patient. The exact time over the island must be suposed in the half of taking off and landing. But remember that Ward confused drop tanks with missiles also that day. Anyway there is no other testimony of the combat except for Martin and Tony. Although i still i´m trying to look for the Pucaras pilots on land (Goose Green) who wittnessed it.
Fortin flight pursued a Sea Harriers CAP that was following one of Torno Daggers. This plane had fuel transfer problems after his strike on british ships and had to go up to save and arrive home. Then a Sea Harrier CAP, probably guided by air controller began to pursuit him. All this was seen by the Malvinas radar who directed Fortin CAP to follow Sea Harriers CAP. It seemed like a race. A solitary Dagger (Torno) followed by 2 Sea Harriers and those followed by 2 Daggers (Fortin).All finally broke and everybody went home.
Regards from Spain
PS: Edmund I have to ask you about your combat on 8 june and Dave Morgan´s book. According to him, Héctor Sánchez, the argentienean survivor, had him in sight and could fire at you. In a BBC radio program, Héctor talked about having see both of you making a turn to avoid you. But also afirm to see the splashes around his plane, so he must be the pilot fired by Morgan, while you probably found your prey (Bolzan) by a sort of chance, cause he wásn´t the pilot fired by Dave, although had to be flying in a paralel course to Sánchez´s one. What do you think?
Suspicion breeds confidence
Jualbo,
The Canberra engagement happened much later in the day approaching dusk. I don't have the precise coordinates for the task force at this time, but most likely the fleet was operating in roughly the same area as in the morning given the need operate strikes against positions on the Falklands and to provide adequate CAP coverage for them. It would have moved East at night; The raid was detected by Invincible on her 1022 set was at 120 miles closing. I believe the Canberras were operating from Trelew (perhaps you could confirm this). If so the graphic below would help explain.
The Alferez Sobral was sent sent to look for the downed Canberra crew when it was attacked by Coventry's Lynx with Sea Skua missiles. This was reported to be approximately 80 miles NW of the task force at the time. Coventry was on the northern most sector of the Type 42 Screen on that day.
The Canberra engagement happened much later in the day approaching dusk. I don't have the precise coordinates for the task force at this time, but most likely the fleet was operating in roughly the same area as in the morning given the need operate strikes against positions on the Falklands and to provide adequate CAP coverage for them. It would have moved East at night; The raid was detected by Invincible on her 1022 set was at 120 miles closing. I believe the Canberras were operating from Trelew (perhaps you could confirm this). If so the graphic below would help explain.
The Alferez Sobral was sent sent to look for the downed Canberra crew when it was attacked by Coventry's Lynx with Sea Skua missiles. This was reported to be approximately 80 miles NW of the task force at the time. Coventry was on the northern most sector of the Type 42 Screen on that day.
Last edited by Navaleye; 2nd Jan 2009 at 00:24.
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Jualbo
I wrote an account of the combat earlier in this thread.
A more recent communication with Hector Sanchez would indicate that he never was in a position to fire at Dave Morgan or myself.
As I wrote previously, initially, I had no visual contact with either Dave Morgan or any of the A4's. I pulled out of my dive at about 100 feet above the sea doing about 610 knots on the attack heading Dave had called. Shortly afterwards I saw Dave fire his two sidewinders in quick succession about a mile or so ahead of me. I saw both these hits and thereby got visual with Dave. He then closed the third A4 and opened up with his entire magazine from both 30mm Aden cannons. This enabled me to get visual on the A4 he was firing at and, when he pulled up and clear, it was this A4 I locked with one of my sidewinders and fired at. There is absolutely no doubt about this!
I never saw Hector but from recent conversations with Dave we gather he was ahead and to the right of both of us. I have to say he is probably extremely fortunate I didn't see him as I would have been in a good firing position to shoot at him as well!
ES
I wrote an account of the combat earlier in this thread.
A more recent communication with Hector Sanchez would indicate that he never was in a position to fire at Dave Morgan or myself.
As I wrote previously, initially, I had no visual contact with either Dave Morgan or any of the A4's. I pulled out of my dive at about 100 feet above the sea doing about 610 knots on the attack heading Dave had called. Shortly afterwards I saw Dave fire his two sidewinders in quick succession about a mile or so ahead of me. I saw both these hits and thereby got visual with Dave. He then closed the third A4 and opened up with his entire magazine from both 30mm Aden cannons. This enabled me to get visual on the A4 he was firing at and, when he pulled up and clear, it was this A4 I locked with one of my sidewinders and fired at. There is absolutely no doubt about this!
I never saw Hector but from recent conversations with Dave we gather he was ahead and to the right of both of us. I have to say he is probably extremely fortunate I didn't see him as I would have been in a good firing position to shoot at him as well!
ES
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TEEEJ
There was one crew of profesional news , leaded by Kazanzeu , who had the oprtunity to film almost all the war , but saddly all what was film was censored and destroyed before it was able to send back to continent , and when in continent it was censored again -
At the best he may have been able to recover only 10 % of all what he had - Because of that most part of the History was lost -
At the best he may have been able to recover only 10 % of all what he had - Because of that most part of the History was lost -
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As a matter of interest here is a photo recently taken by Dave Morgan of the A4 I shot down on 8 June 1982.
ES
ES
Last edited by Edmund Spencer; 2nd Jan 2009 at 05:37.
I used to work with a guy called Geoff Fish who was a helicopter pilot during the war. He used to recount a tale of a mechanical failure which lead to his helicopter crash landing in a pond. I've tried googling this in order to find out more info but I drew a blank so can anyone on PPRuNe add any details?
According to some British reports, after the May 30th attack, many SH were lunch to try to intercet the intruders. There are also reports about the lunching of 5 Sea Dart that day from the HMS Invincible.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 2nd Jan 2009 at 23:09.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Exeter fired three Sea Dart in single shots, downing a A4s at very low level. The total Sea Dart expenditure in the campaign was about 30 missiles.
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Awesome
Guys from each corner of the globe, this thread is what is beautiful about
modern technology and the net especially!
Can you imagine the Spitfire and Hurricane Pilots of WWII chating like this
with their Luftwaffe counterparts a few years on?
Ive never been so excited and compelled to read each reply to this amazing thread! Having people, live humans interacting online WHO WERE ACTUALLY THERE! Just awesome!
I was a mere lad of 16 when this took place! Ive been fortunate to be around the military and aviation for many years since!
I simply want to say thank you to everyone who has contributed and offered
their personal memories (many of which I am sure are still painful to some of you)
Human nature is an amazing thing sometimes!
God bless all of you and I wish everyone who reads my message a peaceful 2009
I actually feel quite honoured to read this!
Thank you again
AB
modern technology and the net especially!
Can you imagine the Spitfire and Hurricane Pilots of WWII chating like this
with their Luftwaffe counterparts a few years on?
Ive never been so excited and compelled to read each reply to this amazing thread! Having people, live humans interacting online WHO WERE ACTUALLY THERE! Just awesome!
I was a mere lad of 16 when this took place! Ive been fortunate to be around the military and aviation for many years since!
I simply want to say thank you to everyone who has contributed and offered
their personal memories (many of which I am sure are still painful to some of you)
Human nature is an amazing thing sometimes!
God bless all of you and I wish everyone who reads my message a peaceful 2009
I actually feel quite honoured to read this!
Thank you again
AB
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According to FAA webpage:
Two Learjets, radio call sign "Pepe" tokk off from San Julián at 10:07, takinf the route Río Gallegos-Falklands- Río Gallegos-San Julián, arriving to Falklands at 10:30 in a flight level 350 (I think the time is obviously wrong. Probably 11:30) Being at a position 51º 30' S/58º 30' W they contacted Malvinas radar. Number 2 saw two missiles coming almost horizontally. Both planes opened the formation avoiding them. Malvinas informed no plane was in the air at the moment, so the missiles had to come from a ship (HMS Coventry or HMS Broadsword). They went down hardly coming back home. They landed at Río Gallegos at 12:57. And from there, they finally landed at San Julián at 17:15.
Another two Learjet took off from Comodoro Rivadavia at 10:10 with a radio call sign "Litro". Litro 2 aborted shortly after due to mechanical problems. Litro 1 arrived at Falklands at 11:45. Flying at FL 400, under radar control they took a 90º course going away around 30 miles. Then radar ordered to came back as fast they could. They began a hard right turn. The observer could apreciate a SAM really close to the wing extreme. Then went down fast and returned home landing in Río Gallegos at 13:10 cause Comodoro Rivadavia was close due to bad weather.
Two Learjets, radio call sign "Pepe" tokk off from San Julián at 10:07, takinf the route Río Gallegos-Falklands- Río Gallegos-San Julián, arriving to Falklands at 10:30 in a flight level 350 (I think the time is obviously wrong. Probably 11:30) Being at a position 51º 30' S/58º 30' W they contacted Malvinas radar. Number 2 saw two missiles coming almost horizontally. Both planes opened the formation avoiding them. Malvinas informed no plane was in the air at the moment, so the missiles had to come from a ship (HMS Coventry or HMS Broadsword). They went down hardly coming back home. They landed at Río Gallegos at 12:57. And from there, they finally landed at San Julián at 17:15.
Another two Learjet took off from Comodoro Rivadavia at 10:10 with a radio call sign "Litro". Litro 2 aborted shortly after due to mechanical problems. Litro 1 arrived at Falklands at 11:45. Flying at FL 400, under radar control they took a 90º course going away around 30 miles. Then radar ordered to came back as fast they could. They began a hard right turn. The observer could apreciate a SAM really close to the wing extreme. Then went down fast and returned home landing in Río Gallegos at 13:10 cause Comodoro Rivadavia was close due to bad weather.
Suspicion breeds confidence
At the time of impact on AC, Hermes was on a reciprocal to Invincible 2000 yds off her port bow. Atlantic Conveyor was 14 miles to port. Neither Hermes or Invincible were in any danger from this attack, if they had been both Exocets would have ditched. AC was defenseless but was only hit by one Exocet which did detonate.
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Navaleye. On 1 may there were two trio of Canberras with a time separation about 25 minutes. The first one encircled HMS Brilliant and HMS Yarmouth. They say they were fired two missiles. I have reports from that ships to have fired rocket chaff missiles (probably fearing an Exocet raid) or perhaps ASW rocket or mortar (they were hunting for ARA San Luis). The first trio aborted. One of the planes was damaged while turning (I think he skirmished the water while turned to avoid the suposed threat cause, according to some sources, the wing was deflected but not burned or holed by shrapnel). I have no account from both ships of having fired.
They saw the islands and one ship, confusing her position with the northern entrance of Falkland sound. In the scape they saw two air objects in the horizon believed helicopters or Harriers and a ship they confused with a carrier. I think probably the other frigate (one Brilliant, the other Yarmouth and the air objects Sea Kings that were supporting the ASW mission)
The second trio was intercepted by Sea Harrier (Curtiss-Broadwater) 25 minutes later when closing to Invincible (24 miles). But there is no testimony of pilots about having watched her. I think you are probably right in the position in the map of this flight that also took off from Trellew. This flight probably was flying a northern route by a navigational error cause its intended target was the same than the first trio (british landing crafts in Berkeley sound) that clearly saw the islands and the ASW group.
One question: On 23 may attacks against Antelope, the two bombs that hit her, were Mk-17 1000 lb or one of them was Mk-82 Snakeeye 500 lb and the other a Mk-17? In that case, which was the one that hit the starboard aft section, the first dropped or the bomb that hit in second place? Which type was it?
Thanks
They saw the islands and one ship, confusing her position with the northern entrance of Falkland sound. In the scape they saw two air objects in the horizon believed helicopters or Harriers and a ship they confused with a carrier. I think probably the other frigate (one Brilliant, the other Yarmouth and the air objects Sea Kings that were supporting the ASW mission)
The second trio was intercepted by Sea Harrier (Curtiss-Broadwater) 25 minutes later when closing to Invincible (24 miles). But there is no testimony of pilots about having watched her. I think you are probably right in the position in the map of this flight that also took off from Trellew. This flight probably was flying a northern route by a navigational error cause its intended target was the same than the first trio (british landing crafts in Berkeley sound) that clearly saw the islands and the ASW group.
One question: On 23 may attacks against Antelope, the two bombs that hit her, were Mk-17 1000 lb or one of them was Mk-82 Snakeeye 500 lb and the other a Mk-17? In that case, which was the one that hit the starboard aft section, the first dropped or the bomb that hit in second place? Which type was it?
Thanks
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One question: A crewmember from Exeter told me about one of their Sea Darts launched on 30th may, flying over HMS Avenger. Is it true?
Edmund I found these links in military photos forum:
http://db.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/ram/falklands2.ram
http://db.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/f...ogramme2.shtml
It´s the interview to Morgan and Sánchez.
I have no doubt about your words but if you listen Sánchez is in some way contradictory. I think he didn´t see all the action or perhaps was flying closer to Bolzán than it seems. The only way to see shots from Morgan would be if he would have been flying forward to Bolzán and some past shots would explode close to him after passing Bolzán plane. It would explain the fire watched by him. He doesn´t talk about any kind of advertisment to his fellows so probably didn´t saw the launchings of Sidewinders against them. From where Morgan affirm in his book that Sánchez had him in his way and could fire? FAA webpage says in Bolzán´s obituary that Sánchez saw two Sea Harriers coming from upper and right position. Does it mean that was ahead and on the left when you shoted down Bolzán? Or behind (what would explain he to be the only to not attack) on the left. In this case perhaps he could take you on sight. It would explain you didn´t watch him.
Also FAA webpage says that his plane was damaged by small arms (probably when they aproached to the target flying over land in Fitzroy area). It´s possible these are the shots he talks about. According to Morgan three planes dropped their bombs against the craft. The fourth (Sánchez) aborted and didn´t attack.
Great photo of the infortunate Bolzan´s Skyhawk.
Thanks again
According to FAA webpage:
Torno took off from San Julian at 15:45 and landed at 18:25. So probably overflew the islands around 17:05.
Fortin took off from San Julián at 16:00 and landed at 18:40. They intercepted the CAP that pursuited Torno 3. So they probably were over Falklands at 17:10.
Buitre took off from Río Gallegos at 15:50 and arrived at 17:40 (so flying the island around 16:45)
Dardo took off from Río Gallegos at 15:45 (so over Falklands at 16:40)
Rubio took off from Río Grande at 15:54 (so over Falklands at 16:54)
The witness of this last combat were the Pucara pilots Cap Grünert, Cap Vila and 1st Lt Fasani.
Some sources also places a solitary Dagger from San Julián (Fierro) over the islands around 17:00, but Núñez Padín ( a reputed argentinean air historician places this flight in the morming tooking off from San Julián at 12:30)
Regards
Edmund I found these links in military photos forum:
http://db.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/ram/falklands2.ram
http://db.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/f...ogramme2.shtml
It´s the interview to Morgan and Sánchez.
I have no doubt about your words but if you listen Sánchez is in some way contradictory. I think he didn´t see all the action or perhaps was flying closer to Bolzán than it seems. The only way to see shots from Morgan would be if he would have been flying forward to Bolzán and some past shots would explode close to him after passing Bolzán plane. It would explain the fire watched by him. He doesn´t talk about any kind of advertisment to his fellows so probably didn´t saw the launchings of Sidewinders against them. From where Morgan affirm in his book that Sánchez had him in his way and could fire? FAA webpage says in Bolzán´s obituary that Sánchez saw two Sea Harriers coming from upper and right position. Does it mean that was ahead and on the left when you shoted down Bolzán? Or behind (what would explain he to be the only to not attack) on the left. In this case perhaps he could take you on sight. It would explain you didn´t watch him.
Also FAA webpage says that his plane was damaged by small arms (probably when they aproached to the target flying over land in Fitzroy area). It´s possible these are the shots he talks about. According to Morgan three planes dropped their bombs against the craft. The fourth (Sánchez) aborted and didn´t attack.
Great photo of the infortunate Bolzan´s Skyhawk.
Thanks again
According to FAA webpage:
Torno took off from San Julian at 15:45 and landed at 18:25. So probably overflew the islands around 17:05.
Fortin took off from San Julián at 16:00 and landed at 18:40. They intercepted the CAP that pursuited Torno 3. So they probably were over Falklands at 17:10.
Buitre took off from Río Gallegos at 15:50 and arrived at 17:40 (so flying the island around 16:45)
Dardo took off from Río Gallegos at 15:45 (so over Falklands at 16:40)
Rubio took off from Río Grande at 15:54 (so over Falklands at 16:54)
The witness of this last combat were the Pucara pilots Cap Grünert, Cap Vila and 1st Lt Fasani.
Some sources also places a solitary Dagger from San Julián (Fierro) over the islands around 17:00, but Núñez Padín ( a reputed argentinean air historician places this flight in the morming tooking off from San Julián at 12:30)
Regards
Last edited by jualbo; 2nd Jan 2009 at 23:32.
Suspicion breeds confidence
One question: A crewmember from Exeter told me about one of their Sea Darts launched on 30th may, flying over HMS Avenger. Is it true?
The Exocet ditched at the end of its flight and the two remaining Skyhawks made unsuccessful attacks on Avenger scoring no hits. Invincible was was 22 miles from Exeter which was controlling the engagement which was broadcast over link 10. Exeter had the latest ADAWS kit, plus a highly effective type 1022 volume search radar. At no time was the Exocet in range of Hermes or Invincible
The rest is history.
Suspicion breeds confidence
One question: On 23 may attacks against Antelope, the two bombs that hit her, were Mk-17 1000 lb or one of them was Mk-82 Snakeeye 500 lb and the other a Mk-17? In that case,
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Thank you very much for the link, Jualbo. This is the first time I have listened to this interview.
Far be it from me to contradict Dave or Hector but some of what was said was highly unlikely/incorrect.
Firstly, if Hector saw cannon fire behind him he would have been ahead of Bolzan. I saw Bolzan manoeuvering with the cannon fire all around him. If Hector was that close I am very surprised I didn't see him.
Secondly, an A4 is not going to get a guns solution against a Sea Harrier doing in excess of 600 knots at 50 feet over the sea no matter what anyone says!! I also fail to see how he ended up behind Dave if the cannon fire was observed behind him in the first place and Dave pulled up as soon as he had finished firing.
I did not fire my cannons in this attack.
Thirdly, I never called that Dave was under attack.
ES
Far be it from me to contradict Dave or Hector but some of what was said was highly unlikely/incorrect.
Firstly, if Hector saw cannon fire behind him he would have been ahead of Bolzan. I saw Bolzan manoeuvering with the cannon fire all around him. If Hector was that close I am very surprised I didn't see him.
Secondly, an A4 is not going to get a guns solution against a Sea Harrier doing in excess of 600 knots at 50 feet over the sea no matter what anyone says!! I also fail to see how he ended up behind Dave if the cannon fire was observed behind him in the first place and Dave pulled up as soon as he had finished firing.
I did not fire my cannons in this attack.
Thirdly, I never called that Dave was under attack.
ES
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To go back to Cuerva's crash on 1st May I have attached a photo of the wing of the A4 shot down on 8th June. I am told that the hook shaped shrapnel marks are unique to the sidewinder warhead. If we could locate and inspect Cuerva's wreckage we might be able to establish how badly he was damaged by Steve Thomas' missile.
ES
ES