Falklands Crash Sites
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is rather interesting....
Italeri 1/48 Mirage IIIE converted to Dagger, by Pablo Calcaterra
One of the better accounts of air to air action I have read regarding the Neshers...
Italeri 1/48 Mirage IIIE converted to Dagger, by Pablo Calcaterra
One of the better accounts of air to air action I have read regarding the Neshers...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, Pablo has done exceptionally well here.
The accounts from all parties are quite different and it is extremely difficult to piece together exactly what actually happened. Piuma, for example, claims he has both Sea Harriers in sight throughout the combat but is then mysteriously hit from behind by an unseen combatant! (Actually, Sharkey.)
When I get a moment I will publish the combat as seen by Donadille. (Bearing in mind he was the first to be shot down.)
Pablo also sent me this web site in Spanish:
Combate Aéreo en los Cielos del Atlántico Sur - 1982 - Defensa.pe - Foro de Defensa y Actualidad Militar
I don't think Martin Hale will like this!
ES
The accounts from all parties are quite different and it is extremely difficult to piece together exactly what actually happened. Piuma, for example, claims he has both Sea Harriers in sight throughout the combat but is then mysteriously hit from behind by an unseen combatant! (Actually, Sharkey.)
When I get a moment I will publish the combat as seen by Donadille. (Bearing in mind he was the first to be shot down.)
Pablo also sent me this web site in Spanish:
Combate Aéreo en los Cielos del Atlántico Sur - 1982 - Defensa.pe - Foro de Defensa y Actualidad Militar
I don't think Martin Hale will like this!
ES
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow Edmund, that is good work in that forum page in Spanish.... a couple of good photos of you during the campaign as well!
I have high hope sites well informed (and well informed people) will finish off some of the rubbish that I read in some of the official sites....like reports of Garcia Cuerva telling Perona of the impending Sidewinder strike because Garcia Cuerva "apparently" knew where both SHAR were....Perona makes no mention of this...in fact, he thought he had collided with a previously unseen SHAR!!
Also, and the worst of all, an account in an Argentinian website with official links in which someone with a lot of imagination reports that Garcia Cuerva disengaged from the SHAR dogfight, turned towards Stanley...and whilst arguing with the Stanley controllers, saw a SHAR about to land at Hermes...he promptly somehow shot it down in flames and came in to land at Stanley, where he was shot down by the Argentinian Army AAA....
I have no idea why someone would think this absurdity would elevate the name of Garcia Cuerva or his skill as a pilot...if anything, I believe it puts in doubt anything anyone says about his true skill, which should never be in question, regardless who the pilot or combatant is!
I have high hope sites well informed (and well informed people) will finish off some of the rubbish that I read in some of the official sites....like reports of Garcia Cuerva telling Perona of the impending Sidewinder strike because Garcia Cuerva "apparently" knew where both SHAR were....Perona makes no mention of this...in fact, he thought he had collided with a previously unseen SHAR!!
Also, and the worst of all, an account in an Argentinian website with official links in which someone with a lot of imagination reports that Garcia Cuerva disengaged from the SHAR dogfight, turned towards Stanley...and whilst arguing with the Stanley controllers, saw a SHAR about to land at Hermes...he promptly somehow shot it down in flames and came in to land at Stanley, where he was shot down by the Argentinian Army AAA....
I have no idea why someone would think this absurdity would elevate the name of Garcia Cuerva or his skill as a pilot...if anything, I believe it puts in doubt anything anyone says about his true skill, which should never be in question, regardless who the pilot or combatant is!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi every body, Very interesting all you said.
I put a link to a very interesting map in an argentinean webpage (thanks to 2-A-203 (from Zona militar foros)):
Falklands "What if...?" - Page 19 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
http://2.bp.*************/_4Iv-9uu9f...h/DSCN2975.JPG
I think is a key map to undestand Canberras evolutions on 1st may. It also places british fleet detected by Tracker. The Canberra downed by Sea Harrier was shot around 120 north from Pebble island while ARA San Luis (and subsequently Yarmouth and Brilliant hunt) was around 25 miles north from East Falkland. If you track a line betwen Berkeley sound, the San Luis op area and Trellew, the place where the Canberra is shot down and Trellew, ALL MATCH.
http://araindomita-intrepida-1982.*************
Great the link to Pablo´s webpage and specially Piuma´s words about his combat on 21st may (I´ve never listened and I´ve always thought he was downed in third place. I studied Senn, Ward and Donaidille words and have some little differences about Pablo text.
In my opinion, and after reading Senn and Donaidille (in Salvador Mafé book for example), Donaidille and Senn were flying close and in a paralel course to Ward. Wrad broke to his left to intercept them. Donaidille turned right to face Ward, while Thomas is unseen for him. He fired around 700 meters distance in order to fear Ward and avoid his interception course towards Senn who kept the course during some time although Donaidille has ordered him to turn right. Then Donaidille crosses Ward who is turning to his right and below Donaidille. The argentinenan captain tried to follow him heading down and turning hard left, to the place where he thinks Ward had to appear. And he appeared from left to right being fired by Donaidille for second time. While he tried to level his plane to make another turn to right to follow the combat against Ward, suddenly, Senn crosses him from left to right . They are close to have a collision. Donaidille lost the combat situation due to the maniouver he had to do to avoid Senn and decided to go home behind Senn. In that moment I think Senn must be in a S-SW course. While Thomas finished his own evolution and placed himself just behind the two argentineans planes that are downed with AIM-9L.
Ward that had headed down and right to avoid Donaidille in the cross, kept his right hard turn almost 360ş and then sees in his right a Dagger passing him lower. He finish his turn and fired him. He was Piuma. I had never listened or read his words, but according to Ward he had to be almost in his hot tail 6 o´clock.
In Senn testimony I never listened any mention to an advertisment by Piuma that he had been fires a missile. If Piuma really saw a Sea Harrier pursuiting his fellows, he was probably Thomas, not Ward. If he fired at him from the rear the logical would be to remain in that position where has not been seen and he could down the british that was flying slower and was an easy prey. Passing him is not logical at all if you have seen it.
Senn also saw a Sea Harrier that Donaidille suspects is a different one from that seen by him (Ward). That´s why he didn´t turn right at the same time than his leader. But any way he finally turned right and is downed by the suposed Sea Harrier seen by him which was trying to avoid, what doesn´t match very well.
Do you have any original interview to Piuma?
Very very interesting posts.
Reagards
I put a link to a very interesting map in an argentinean webpage (thanks to 2-A-203 (from Zona militar foros)):
Falklands "What if...?" - Page 19 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
http://2.bp.*************/_4Iv-9uu9f...h/DSCN2975.JPG
I think is a key map to undestand Canberras evolutions on 1st may. It also places british fleet detected by Tracker. The Canberra downed by Sea Harrier was shot around 120 north from Pebble island while ARA San Luis (and subsequently Yarmouth and Brilliant hunt) was around 25 miles north from East Falkland. If you track a line betwen Berkeley sound, the San Luis op area and Trellew, the place where the Canberra is shot down and Trellew, ALL MATCH.
http://araindomita-intrepida-1982.*************
Great the link to Pablo´s webpage and specially Piuma´s words about his combat on 21st may (I´ve never listened and I´ve always thought he was downed in third place. I studied Senn, Ward and Donaidille words and have some little differences about Pablo text.
In my opinion, and after reading Senn and Donaidille (in Salvador Mafé book for example), Donaidille and Senn were flying close and in a paralel course to Ward. Wrad broke to his left to intercept them. Donaidille turned right to face Ward, while Thomas is unseen for him. He fired around 700 meters distance in order to fear Ward and avoid his interception course towards Senn who kept the course during some time although Donaidille has ordered him to turn right. Then Donaidille crosses Ward who is turning to his right and below Donaidille. The argentinenan captain tried to follow him heading down and turning hard left, to the place where he thinks Ward had to appear. And he appeared from left to right being fired by Donaidille for second time. While he tried to level his plane to make another turn to right to follow the combat against Ward, suddenly, Senn crosses him from left to right . They are close to have a collision. Donaidille lost the combat situation due to the maniouver he had to do to avoid Senn and decided to go home behind Senn. In that moment I think Senn must be in a S-SW course. While Thomas finished his own evolution and placed himself just behind the two argentineans planes that are downed with AIM-9L.
Ward that had headed down and right to avoid Donaidille in the cross, kept his right hard turn almost 360ş and then sees in his right a Dagger passing him lower. He finish his turn and fired him. He was Piuma. I had never listened or read his words, but according to Ward he had to be almost in his hot tail 6 o´clock.
In Senn testimony I never listened any mention to an advertisment by Piuma that he had been fires a missile. If Piuma really saw a Sea Harrier pursuiting his fellows, he was probably Thomas, not Ward. If he fired at him from the rear the logical would be to remain in that position where has not been seen and he could down the british that was flying slower and was an easy prey. Passing him is not logical at all if you have seen it.
Senn also saw a Sea Harrier that Donaidille suspects is a different one from that seen by him (Ward). That´s why he didn´t turn right at the same time than his leader. But any way he finally turned right and is downed by the suposed Sea Harrier seen by him which was trying to avoid, what doesn´t match very well.
Do you have any original interview to Piuma?
Very very interesting posts.
Reagards
Suspicion breeds confidence
Looks like the one shot up by Jerry Pook. Another Puma in the background. I can't remember if they lost one or two. One did fly back to the mainland before the end of the conflict.
Argentinian Chinnock
The Argentine Army sent its two Chinook, one of them was distroy during a bomb run by the Harrier.
The other one was left in the islands. It was ferried to UK later on.
The british recovered it and it is flying with the blue and red flag.
The Argentine Air Force had operated onother two Chinook, both were flying back to the continent shortly before the end of the conflict.
They also left two Bell 212 in flying conditions but the souvenir hunters destroyed it.
The Argentine Cost Guard left one Puma with minor damage, but it was ferried to UK and recovered to flying conditions.
Also two Army Augusta 109 were ferried to UK and transfered to their army.
The other one was left in the islands. It was ferried to UK later on.
The british recovered it and it is flying with the blue and red flag.
The Argentine Air Force had operated onother two Chinook, both were flying back to the continent shortly before the end of the conflict.
They also left two Bell 212 in flying conditions but the souvenir hunters destroyed it.
The Argentine Cost Guard left one Puma with minor damage, but it was ferried to UK and recovered to flying conditions.
Also two Army Augusta 109 were ferried to UK and transfered to their army.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Navaleye, did you see the map I linked to? You can see argentine naval movements as well as the place where british fleet was detected on 1st may. Also the exact position where the Canberra bomber was downed on that day and ARA San Luis OP area.
Do you think the place where a carrier and seven escorts were detected by a 25 may S-2 Tracker is right?
Do you think the place where a carrier and seven escorts were detected by a 25 may S-2 Tracker is right?
Chinook on fire was hit by 30mm Aden fire by Flt Lt Mark Hare on the morning of 21st May 1982, to the north west of Mt Kent. (I've stood in the wreckage 10 years ago)
Note the Puma, in the first photo, that gets hit next time around, as Pook &Hare go round again.
The Chinook can be seen in photos posted earlier in this thread.
The Harriers had dropped CBU's prior to this photo being taken, and from around where these photos were taken, there was strong post war evidence of CBU detonation.
Heres Hares gun camera still showing the Chinook.
The Chinook can be seen in photos posted earlier in this thread.
The Harriers had dropped CBU's prior to this photo being taken, and from around where these photos were taken, there was strong post war evidence of CBU detonation.
Heres Hares gun camera still showing the Chinook.
Last edited by AR1; 1st Mar 2009 at 08:04.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Jualbo,
I have reason to dispute it. Woodward mentions that he had just entered the TEZ and had no intention of being kicked out. That tallies with the position on your map.
I have reason to dispute it. Woodward mentions that he had just entered the TEZ and had no intention of being kicked out. That tallies with the position on your map.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some very good photos:
Los halcones del cielo en San Carlos on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I think it´s taken on 23 may and it´s an A-4Q (they attacked in this raid Antelope, Yarmouth on Chancho Pt and Broadsword)
Skyhawk a punto de atacar al HMS Glasgow on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
The photo says HMS Glasgow, but I suspect may be she´s HMS Coventry under attack on 25th may and the photo is taken from HMS Broadsword flight deck. Although she was smoking for Carballo´s bomb and had a big hole in his flight deck that removed Sea Lynx nose. You can see the helo but not the nose.
What do you think?
PS: Great photos from Ken and AR1.
Los halcones del cielo en San Carlos on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I think it´s taken on 23 may and it´s an A-4Q (they attacked in this raid Antelope, Yarmouth on Chancho Pt and Broadsword)
Skyhawk a punto de atacar al HMS Glasgow on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
The photo says HMS Glasgow, but I suspect may be she´s HMS Coventry under attack on 25th may and the photo is taken from HMS Broadsword flight deck. Although she was smoking for Carballo´s bomb and had a big hole in his flight deck that removed Sea Lynx nose. You can see the helo but not the nose.
What do you think?
PS: Great photos from Ken and AR1.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Ken. So it´s taken from Brilliant. Do you know if the skyhawk is from the first wave or from the second on 12th may?
The first wave was composed by Bustos, Nivoli, Ibarlucea and Vázquez.
The second by Zelaya, Arrarás, Gavazzi and Dellepiane.
Vázquez was the only survivor in his flight. He attacked Glasgow and missed.
Three in the second wave attacked Glasgow while the forth went for Brilliant.
The first wave was composed by Bustos, Nivoli, Ibarlucea and Vázquez.
The second by Zelaya, Arrarás, Gavazzi and Dellepiane.
Vázquez was the only survivor in his flight. He attacked Glasgow and missed.
Three in the second wave attacked Glasgow while the forth went for Brilliant.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Age: 70
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Ken
Hi Ken , Jualbo, Rivas , Mr Spencer and all members of the Forum -
The Argie Forum has open a thread called : Falklands/Malvinas Conflict , Its in English , we all welcome you to visit it , and bring your accounts - We are going to talk of Military Accions only -
We would like to Honor Veterans of the Conflict from both Sides -
Please Join us -
Jualbo could you please help me post the link to the Zona Militar in Argentina -
Thank You - Enrique
The Argie Forum has open a thread called : Falklands/Malvinas Conflict , Its in English , we all welcome you to visit it , and bring your accounts - We are going to talk of Military Accions only -
We would like to Honor Veterans of the Conflict from both Sides -
Please Join us -
Jualbo could you please help me post the link to the Zona Militar in Argentina -
Thank You - Enrique